Thanks for posting this, OP. A great DCUM discussion piece (even if Gladwell is over- agreeing with a PP on that).

In my experience, I needed the confidence boost of being a big fish in a small pond for undergrad. I figured out what I wanted to do and felt confident, after working with kind, supportive professors, to go for a PhD (at a lower Ivy). In grad school I had bouts of low confidence but ultimately made it through. I believe I would never have gone to graduate school if I’d not had the confidence boost of my college experience.

Now with my kids, I see this playing out in different ways- they are all different and only one of them I think will “need” the small pond for college in order to find her way.

The PP who said to each his own was spot on. I needed the small pond until I didn’t. Some of my kids will need it and not others.

Anonymous wrote:What about the branding power of Harvard or MIT? Even if you were at the bottom of your class. Wouldn’t you still typically get a job easily with higher salary compared to a top engineering student at UMD?
Also, isn’t everyone at Harvard or MIT really smart to begin with?

Branding power certainly exists. (Source:my DC)

No, those at the bottom of the class are passed over for the great jobs. (Source: someone from DC’s school went MIT due to lies on application. Only got internships through connections and did nothing the summer before senior year. I can see why no one would take her. )

No, not everyone is smart at Harvard and MIT. AO’s make mistakes. Hooked kids may or may not be smart.

Some might say that TJ is a local example of Gladwell's premise.

The bottom 25% graduating from TJ might well have been top 10-20% at their base HS -- with better college admissions results.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is that if you are able to into a top school from the DMV and don’t have a big hook, you are likely smart enough to be in the top half of your class.

wait until your kid meets the tippy top smarties from nyc, boston and sf bay area, ... or india and china ...

Yeah but there’s also the uber rich kids, the third generation legacies, the one kid from Mississippi so they could say they have all fifty states, the children of prominent people, the athletes. If you look at the data from discovery in the Harvard affirmative action case, there are a lot of those kids. That said, I went to an Ivy and it’s true the kids from Sty and Newton MA were brilliant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about the branding power of Harvard or MIT? Even if you were at the bottom of your class. Wouldn’t you still typically get a job easily with higher salary compared to a top engineering student at UMD?
Also, isn’t everyone at Harvard or MIT really smart to begin with?

No, it's not true. Yes, the top students at MIT/Harvard have an easier time getting jobs. But the lower 25% do not. That's the point. Go where you can excel and you will do just as well, if not better than many at the top schools. It's about your opportunities and what you do with them that matters.

So, the point is not being a big fish in a small pond. The point is not being a meal, which is something I totally agree with, but it’s a very different message that the one being promoted.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on the person, I guess. I was a whale in a small pond, and it did not feel good at all, and I also don’t think it helped professionally. Sorry, if I were to do it again, I’d aim for a better school.

If you were a whale and it didn't help professionally, you weren't using your resources wisely or maximizing your potential in situ.

Maybe. But it still proves my point that being a high performer in an underperforming school does not confer any advantages.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is the lowest ranked graduate at West Point called? Sir.

What is the lowest ranked medical school graduate called? Doctor.

Some would say that’s why it’s important to attend an undergrad school where you will certainly be able to complete the premed requirements, rather than getting weeded out because you're merely a 99th percentile student instead of a 99.99th percentile student.

Exactly I had a friend who got into the BA/MD program at BU but turned to down for Stanford because she felt like you can’t turn down Stanford. She then struggled in premed classes at Stanford and dropped premed. She is not a doctor now and doesn’t particularly love her career.

I have a friend who was premed at Harvard College and got weeded out and is a math teacher for a public school. She is doing fine because of her husband's successful career, but she did not reach her goals either despite being whip smart.

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on the person, I guess. I was a whale in a small pond, and it did not feel good at all, and I also don’t think it helped professionally. Sorry, if I were to do it again, I’d aim for a better school.

I was a whale in a small pond and didn’t like it but it was easy to be top in the class and that got me into Harvard Law

The problem is that “big fish” is a relative term. A true big fish is outside the bounds of the empirical rule and 4 or more standard deviations above the mean. They stand out irrespective of the size of the pond. So at a typical university they will have no peers, while at an elite university they could, best case, have a few peers.

Anonymous wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is that if you are able to into a top school from the DMV and don’t have a big hook, you are likely smart enough to be in the top half of your class.

wait until your kid meets the tippy top smarties from nyc, boston and sf bay area, ... or india and china ...

Anonymous wrote:Another thing to keep in mind is that if you are able to into a top school from the DMV and don’t have a big hook, you are likely smart enough to be in the top half of your class.

Um no, that's just average top-school smart. Everyone at a top-school has that in common. It then becomes the additional things that separate you. That's what leads to stress and loss of identity when always A+ student suddenly isn't at the top anymore.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you are able to into a top school from the DMV and don’t have a big hook, you are likely smart enough to be in the top half of your class.

I think there's something else going on.

I've known kids who got into top schools who planned to be premed. When they hit organic chem and other courses, they didn't do well and realized that they might not be cut out to be a doctor. They switched into a different major. They went into a different occupation. Some are wistful and think "If only I'd gone to state U I'd have gotten better grades and maybe I'd have gotten into med school."

Then I know kids who went to a much lower ranked college and were premed. They got much better grades. They took the MCATS and bombed them. They took a year working as an EMT while studying for the MCAT. Took it again. Did a bit better. Didn't get into med school. Sometimes they try again, but very rarely do they get in on the third attempt.

They now have an undergrad degree in biology.They are a couple of years post college with part time experience as an EMT or doing research.

One of the people I know who did this was considered a superstar at his college. Superb grades. Bombed MCAT. Tried again after working parttime and spending most of his time taking a MCAT prep course. Still didn't make med school. He's now a podiatrist. Another one is a nurse practitioner after 4 attempts to get into medical school.

If you look at Malcolm's rubric, the kids who attended the lower tier colleges did "better" because they graduated with a STEM degree--usually biology. But they didn't make it into med school and biology isn't a good degree to have if you're seeking a job. The kids who attended the more elite college did "worse" because they didn't graduate with a STEM degree. But neither did they waste 1 to 3 years post graduation trying to get into med school. They pivoted away into a different field earlier.

Anonymous wrote:I think elite colleges are great if your kid got in easily and knows they will be in the top half and thrive.

For others, they had to work like crazy and work to exhaustion just to reach into a top school. When they get in, they want and need to exhale but can't because they are surrounded by so many competitive uber performers and they feel imposter syndrome and its a crushing blow to self esteem which leads to all kinds of issues with coping mechanisms.

If you think your kid may be in the 2nd group, that is the group to worry about.

And that has been true for decades, even before the craziness existed. I went to a T10 30+ years ago. And new student week, they told the parents, "you are used to your student being at the top. Well so is literally every other student here. Everyone came from the top 10% of their HS class, most from the top 5%. For the first time in your kid's life, they might get a B or even worse a C. Your job is to support them and keep them encouraged to learn and find their path". And it was so true. While all were really smart, there were still kids who struggled because it was the first time school was not easy for them, and it's very different to be surrounded by kids who all know what they are doing.

Anonymous wrote:What about the branding power of Harvard or MIT? Even if you were at the bottom of your class. Wouldn’t you still typically get a job easily with higher salary compared to a top engineering student at UMD?
Also, isn’t everyone at Harvard or MIT really smart to begin with?

No, it's not true. Yes, the top students at MIT/Harvard have an easier time getting jobs. But the lower 25% do not. That's the point. Go where you can excel and you will do just as well, if not better than many at the top schools. It's about your opportunities and what you do with them that matters.