Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women's self improvement does not increase their partner satisfaction outcomes, in fact it maybe inverse correlated because they naturally have higher standards.

Men frequently sacrifice their happiness for their family. Women often sacrifice their family for their happiness. That's what I think of when I hear prattle about "self-improvement."

So many divorces happen when some therapist tells a woman to "self-actualize." She goes out and "improves" herself. Meanwhile, the husband is grinding away, providing for his family. Then they divorce and she discovers he actually WASN'T the source of her unhappiness.

Happens all the time.

😂😂😂. Who are we talking about here? Santa Claus??? 😂😂😂. Or like a figment of your imagination?

That’s the MRA “prattle” poster. He pops up in this forum on the regular. Ignore.

I'm no MRA guy, although prattle is a fantastic word, especially to dismiss crazy woman rants. I will push back on the rampant misandry on this site, though. As should everyone. It's toxic and has no place here in a parenting forum.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since women are so great, why do lesbian couples have the highest rates of divorce and gay couples have the lowest?

Maybe there is something wrong with lesbians in particular.

Lesbian here. We leave like men. That's why the divorce rate is higher. We don't stick around, "stand by our (wo)man", tolerate abuse, etc. We're not financially dependent on a partner the way many hets are (the wage gap continues, outliers notwithstanding). We also probably communicate better, so it's easier to divide a home, the kids, the pets, etc. without all the horrible nonsense many women trying to leave a man go through. We don't have to stay, so we don't. It's very masc, but in a functional way. So stop using it to justify male mediocrity because it's not the same thing.

Straight woman here, thank you for this explanation, it makes sense!

Birds of a feather. I know many good men. I was raised by one, I am married to one, and my social and family circles are full of men who are good husbands and fathers. Gainfully employed, involved in family life, etc.

And sure, I can name some duds, too, but they are the exception.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many relationship forum threads seem to devolve into the notion that “good” men (employed, functional) are rare - and I think we can all agree on that. That being the case, why can’t men just…improve themselves? Dress better, aim higher, work harder, get out there? What is stopping them??

Most threads about relationships on the internet are negative. People who are happy don’t post as much. So using that as your basis is flawed.

I disagree that functional men are rare. Your sample is skewed by who you know and associate with.

Aim higher, OP. Get out there into better circles.

This. If ever there were an example of observation bias, this OP is it.

Anonymous wrote:

The only real way for men to improve is to hold each other accountable. Or possibly, if he’s been through the pain of breakups/divorce, that might be enough to spur a change. But usually it just results in them swearing off women.

+1 Men need to change the culture to be about being the best man, not the laziest man who got away with the most bs. Men pride themselves on being disgusting for the accolades and praise and "points" they get from other mediocre men.

Because as long as men can fertilize women, they qualify. They are pursued according to:

-Find man with sperm
-Receive sperm
-Seethe a lifetime in silence about the sperm delivery system

Anonymous wrote:There’s been a lot of research showing men are far more susceptible to peer influence and are overall highly concerned with how other man think of them. They behave in ways that align them with the alpha male, rather than with females.

So you now have a bunch of men who all basically suck, so they all default to the worst possible person, and when you throw in the podcasters (who are the alphas now), they align themselves with those men. Even if it results in worse lives for themselves.

The only real way for men to improve is to hold each other accountable. Or possibly, if he’s been through the pain of breakups/divorce, that might be enough to spur a change. But usually it just results in them swearing off women.

This, but also? Who's raising these "men"? Who's enabling them? Who's marrying them, coddling them, sleeping with them...? They don't improve their behavior because they can still get what they want while behaving this way. Too many women are desperate to be in a relationship and will settle for some mother's mediocre son. If women raised their standards, men would have to rise to the challenge. But there's too many opportunities to be a piece of trash man and still have a wife, a family, etc.

And they're getting aware of this, which is why they want to make divorces harder to get, demand more kids (because a woman would leave for herself, but they stay "for the kids"). Women need to realize the whole system is a scam and opt out and then men will need to figure out a way to reconnect. Many of them won't; the bottom-feeders will still listen to their toxic masculinity bros and hide in their goonercaves. But we didn't want them anyway, so no real loss there. The ones who can evolve will, once the stakes are high enough.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since women are so great, why do lesbian couples have the highest rates of divorce and gay couples have the lowest?

Maybe there is something wrong with lesbians in particular.

Lesbian here. We leave like men. That's why the divorce rate is higher. We don't stick around, "stand by our (wo)man", tolerate abuse, etc. We're not financially dependent on a partner the way many hets are (the wage gap continues, outliers notwithstanding). We also probably communicate better, so it's easier to divide a home, the kids, the pets, etc. without all the horrible nonsense many women trying to leave a man go through. We don't have to stay, so we don't. It's very masc, but in a functional way. So stop using it to justify male mediocrity because it's not the same thing.

There’s been a lot of research showing men are far more susceptible to peer influence and are overall highly concerned with how other man think of them. They behave in ways that align them with the alpha male, rather than with females.

So you now have a bunch of men who all basically suck, so they all default to the worst possible person, and when you throw in the podcasters (who are the alphas now), they align themselves with those men. Even if it results in worse lives for themselves.

The only real way for men to improve is to hold each other accountable. Or possibly, if he’s been through the pain of breakups/divorce, that might be enough to spur a change. But usually it just results in them swearing off women.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women's self improvement does not increase their partner satisfaction outcomes, in fact it maybe inverse correlated because they naturally have higher standards.

Men frequently sacrifice their happiness for their family. Women often sacrifice their family for their happiness. That's what I think of when I hear prattle about "self-improvement."

So many divorces happen when some therapist tells a woman to "self-actualize." She goes out and "improves" herself. Meanwhile, the husband is grinding away, providing for his family. Then they divorce and she discovers he actually WASN'T the source of her unhappiness.

Happens all the time.

😂😂😂. Who are we talking about here? Santa Claus??? 😂😂😂. Or like a figment of your imagination?

That’s the MRA “prattle” poster. He pops up in this forum on the regular. Ignore.

Anonymous wrote:I mean, not a representative sample, but most of the men I know are good dads and spouses. We're talking about my kid's friends Dads, my coworkers, my husband's friends, my friend's husbands. There are exceptions, I do know some guys who can't hold down jobs and don't do housework, but they're the minority.

So I don't buy the premise that good men are rare. I think the internet just magnifies the worst stories and voices.

This. I’m tired of the “useless man” rants. I know a lot of really crappy women. Some people are awesome, others are not. DH and I have plenty of flaws, really good characteristics.

I do agree with PP up thread that mentioned men learning from their fathers. People are products of their upbringing and I think historically girls have been/are more likely to be taught relationship skills growing up in a way that boys were/are not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Women's self improvement does not increase their partner satisfaction outcomes, in fact it maybe inverse correlated because they naturally have higher standards.

Men frequently sacrifice their happiness for their family. Women often sacrifice their family for their happiness. That's what I think of when I hear prattle about "self-improvement."

So many divorces happen when some therapist tells a woman to "self-actualize." She goes out and "improves" herself. Meanwhile, the husband is grinding away, providing for his family. Then they divorce and she discovers he actually WASN'T the source of her unhappiness.

Happens all the time.

😂😂😂. Who are we talking about here? Santa Claus??? 😂😂😂. Or like a figment of your imagination?

We're talking about reality. I'm sorry you have a bad picker. But you need to stop confusing your own limited life experience with being norm. You're clearly an outlier.

Anonymous wrote:Many relationship forum threads seem to devolve into the notion that “good” men (employed, functional) are rare - and I think we can all agree on that. That being the case, why can’t men just…improve themselves? Dress better, aim higher, work harder, get out there? What is stopping them??

Op, if you observe history, men either give in and allow a matriarchal society with women leading, or they get jealous and take steps to control women into submission…sometimes both. It’s as old as time itself.
Men just can’t be better. Again, there are wonderful examples…but overall our culture allows them to be mediocre. They need more parental care than most are willing to give.

Anonymous wrote:Dress better? Your priorities are out of wack.

No, this is a good point. Too many men are just slovenly. Like the suburban dad uniform of khaki cargo shorts, a T-shirt from college, trainers and backwards trucker cap (probably to cover their growing bald spot).

Not a lot of men out there who wear pressed trousers, a polo or button-down shirt of natural material or a quarter-zip, shoes that coordinate with their belt. It's like they're all clones. Bring back men in fedoras and three-piece suits when they're out in public, I say.

I think the breakdown of civic institutions and the breakdown of men are related, particularly for young men who just seem completely lost. Like religion and organized groups gave men mentorship and socialization and an idea of how they are “supposed” to be, often to the exclusion of women. Now those groups don’t really shape men so all they have is their family, which may not be enough.