Anonymous wrote:i agree that idiocy, culture, and ignorance play into this a lot.

But I've always thought there was more nuance to the question of why do poor states vote so GOP when GOP policies are so bad for the poor.

The US (and WVA) have pretty low voter turnout. Only 63% in WVA. Voting correlates with income and education; the more income and educaiton you have, the more likely you are to vote. The poor have pretty low voter turnout.

So imagine in WVA you are the guy who finished 2 years community college and has gone to your shitty job at Walmart every day for 5 years and now you're manager and making $22 an hour. Your income still sucks but.... you're likely above the line of getting any government social programs (no medicaid, SNAP, housing support etc). You probably have enough money to live in an area not completely ravaged by environmental ruin. You also probably vote. Now you look around your shitty state, and you're surrounded by drop outs, drug users, people having babies with multiple kids, people who are perpetually unemployed, don't even bother getting jobs, people in and out of jail. Like, run of the mill red state poverty. Of course, dcum readers know that there are a lot of institutional and other factors that result in that kind of poverty; but there's also obviously an element of free choice as relates to poverty (and whomever cracks the nut on where outside vs inside factors come into play on poverty should be a billionaire, but i digress....). So you're the guy getting up every to your crappy walmart job for $22 an hour for years surrounded by a lot of poor people who are not doing the same. And your experience and exposure to those poor people makes you more inclined to vote for policies that will hurt those poor people. And the poor people, as mentioned above, aren't actually voting at all. Like, the person who is making $8 an hour at walmart and not moving up the wage chain -- they've probably got some issues going on if after a few years they're not moving up the employment chain -- so i'm guessing that person is not a voter at all. And when i'm a rich person in NOVA who has almost no exposure to poor people, my support of govt policies that help them is entirely theoretical (based on what i read in the news and my knowledge that poor people exist and need help). But when you're a middle class worker in UVA, your knowledge of the poor is very tangible. And that direct exposure may in fact make you far less sympathetic to poor people and the govt policies that help them.

In other words, instead of asking "Why do poor people in poor states vote for policies that hurt them?", I'd assume that poor people in poor states who benefit from the main govt programs (medicaid, SNAP, housing) mostly don't vote at all, but the higher number of poor people in poor states makes the working middle class and above (ie the people who do vote, and who do not benefit from medicaid, SNAP, housing) less sympathetic to poor people and the policies that help them. Hence, you end up with MORE people in red poor states voting against govt programs that help the poor non-voters in their states.

Obviously, working people benefit from other govt programs that may be impacted by Trump or not, but those are buried deep in the details -- and the average american (rich, poor, educated or not) doesn't really understand nor vote on those issues.

But main point: If i'm working class in WVA and surrounded by a bunch of (to me) unemployed lazy bums who use drugs and don't bother showing up to work half the time and then coast on unemployment for 6 months, I might be inclined to vote for Trump too. Exposure to poverty probably makes the non-poor less sympathetic to poverty.

Anonymous wrote:Another possibility is that voters value a lot more than just economics. that might be inconvenient for you, but it's reality.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another possibility is that voters value a lot more than just economics. that might be inconvenient for you, but it's reality.

Like what specifically? What does Trump offer them?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i agree that idiocy, culture, and ignorance play into this a lot.

But I've always thought there was more nuance to the question of why do poor states vote so GOP when GOP policies are so bad for the poor.

The US (and WVA) have pretty low voter turnout. Only 63% in WVA. Voting correlates with income and education; the more income and educaiton you have, the more likely you are to vote. The poor have pretty low voter turnout.

So imagine in WVA you are the guy who finished 2 years community college and has gone to your shitty job at Walmart every day for 5 years and now you're manager and making $22 an hour. Your income still sucks but.... you're likely above the line of getting any government social programs (no medicaid, SNAP, housing support etc). You probably have enough money to live in an area not completely ravaged by environmental ruin. You also probably vote. Now you look around your shitty state, and you're surrounded by drop outs, drug users, people having babies with multiple kids, people who are perpetually unemployed, don't even bother getting jobs, people in and out of jail. Like, run of the mill red state poverty. Of course, dcum readers know that there are a lot of institutional and other factors that result in that kind of poverty; but there's also obviously an element of free choice as relates to poverty (and whomever cracks the nut on where outside vs inside factors come into play on poverty should be a billionaire, but i digress....). So you're the guy getting up every to your crappy walmart job for $22 an hour for years surrounded by a lot of poor people who are not doing the same. And your experience and exposure to those poor people makes you more inclined to vote for policies that will hurt those poor people. And the poor people, as mentioned above, aren't actually voting at all. Like, the person who is making $8 an hour at walmart and not moving up the wage chain -- they've probably got some issues going on if after a few years they're not moving up the employment chain -- so i'm guessing that person is not a voter at all. And when i'm a rich person in NOVA who has almost no exposure to poor people, my support of govt policies that help them is entirely theoretical (based on what i read in the news and my knowledge that poor people exist and need help). But when you're a middle class worker in UVA, your knowledge of the poor is very tangible. And that direct exposure may in fact make you far less sympathetic to poor people and the govt policies that help them.

In other words, instead of asking "Why do poor people in poor states vote for policies that hurt them?", I'd assume that poor people in poor states who benefit from the main govt programs (medicaid, SNAP, housing) mostly don't vote at all, but the higher number of poor people in poor states makes the working middle class and above (ie the people who do vote, and who do not benefit from medicaid, SNAP, housing) less sympathetic to poor people and the policies that help them. Hence, you end up with MORE people in red poor states voting against govt programs that help the poor non-voters in their states.

Obviously, working people benefit from other govt programs that may be impacted by Trump or not, but those are buried deep in the details -- and the average american (rich, poor, educated or not) doesn't really understand nor vote on those issues.

But main point: If i'm working class in WVA and surrounded by a bunch of (to me) unemployed lazy bums who use drugs and don't bother showing up to work half the time and then coast on unemployment for 6 months, I might be inclined to vote for Trump too. Exposure to poverty probably makes the non-poor less sympathetic to poverty.

It's not just about poor people. If you read the article, the community would've benefited from the billions in Biden's infrastructure bill to WVA, and that was killed by Trump. This bill wouldn't just help the poor, but the state in general. Yet, WVA still strongly supports Trump.

Also, even small business owners who supported Trump have had to close up shop due to his tariff policies, and they still support him. These people are neither poor nor completely "uneducated".

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-man-voted-trump-131500350.html

Explain that one. The only explanation I can come up with is that they are brainwashed cult members.

Anonymous wrote:Because there are a lot of people willing to take a hit so long as they believe others lower in the hierarchy are going to get it worse. That's what MAGA is about. They are trying to put society back the way it was when things were good for them, ie. a return to strict racial, gender, and class hierarchies.

The fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals/progressives is their view on the purpose of government. Conservatives believe government exists to enforce "the rule of law" and social hierarchy (although this is usually the quiet part). Liberals and progressives believe government is supposed to serve the public and provide services. Conservatives see that and taxation as theft and counter to what government is supposed to do.

So MAGA fundamentally does not believe they will be affected by these policies because THEY are the good ones, the ones deserving of government services, and all these women/POC/Jews/Immigrants/your scapegoat of choice are taking from them. And when MAGA finds themselves on the wrong end of policies, well it's an isolated incident. That was just a bad cop. That ICE agent made a mistake. It's never the broader policy that is the issue.

You will not reach these people using logic. The entire ideology is based in their feelings and fears. The only way they will be reached is when they can no longer deny what is plainly true, and when they and people like them are suffering en masse. Higher grocery prices is starting to work, but I think the pain will have to become far more acute before they start using their brains.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i agree that idiocy, culture, and ignorance play into this a lot.

But I've always thought there was more nuance to the question of why do poor states vote so GOP when GOP policies are so bad for the poor.

The US (and WVA) have pretty low voter turnout. Only 63% in WVA. Voting correlates with income and education; the more income and educaiton you have, the more likely you are to vote. The poor have pretty low voter turnout.

So imagine in WVA you are the guy who finished 2 years community college and has gone to your shitty job at Walmart every day for 5 years and now you're manager and making $22 an hour. Your income still sucks but.... you're likely above the line of getting any government social programs (no medicaid, SNAP, housing support etc). You probably have enough money to live in an area not completely ravaged by environmental ruin. You also probably vote. Now you look around your shitty state, and you're surrounded by drop outs, drug users, people having babies with multiple kids, people who are perpetually unemployed, don't even bother getting jobs, people in and out of jail. Like, run of the mill red state poverty. Of course, dcum readers know that there are a lot of institutional and other factors that result in that kind of poverty; but there's also obviously an element of free choice as relates to poverty (and whomever cracks the nut on where outside vs inside factors come into play on poverty should be a billionaire, but i digress....). So you're the guy getting up every to your crappy walmart job for $22 an hour for years surrounded by a lot of poor people who are not doing the same. And your experience and exposure to those poor people makes you more inclined to vote for policies that will hurt those poor people. And the poor people, as mentioned above, aren't actually voting at all. Like, the person who is making $8 an hour at walmart and not moving up the wage chain -- they've probably got some issues going on if after a few years they're not moving up the employment chain -- so i'm guessing that person is not a voter at all. And when i'm a rich person in NOVA who has almost no exposure to poor people, my support of govt policies that help them is entirely theoretical (based on what i read in the news and my knowledge that poor people exist and need help). But when you're a middle class worker in UVA, your knowledge of the poor is very tangible. And that direct exposure may in fact make you far less sympathetic to poor people and the govt policies that help them.

In other words, instead of asking "Why do poor people in poor states vote for policies that hurt them?", I'd assume that poor people in poor states who benefit from the main govt programs (medicaid, SNAP, housing) mostly don't vote at all, but the higher number of poor people in poor states makes the working middle class and above (ie the people who do vote, and who do not benefit from medicaid, SNAP, housing) less sympathetic to poor people and the policies that help them. Hence, you end up with MORE people in red poor states voting against govt programs that help the poor non-voters in their states.

Obviously, working people benefit from other govt programs that may be impacted by Trump or not, but those are buried deep in the details -- and the average american (rich, poor, educated or not) doesn't really understand nor vote on those issues.

But main point: If i'm working class in WVA and surrounded by a bunch of (to me) unemployed lazy bums who use drugs and don't bother showing up to work half the time and then coast on unemployment for 6 months, I might be inclined to vote for Trump too. Exposure to poverty probably makes the non-poor less sympathetic to poverty.

It's not just about poor people. If you read the article, the community would've benefited from the billions in Biden's infrastructure bill to WVA, and that was killed by Trump. This bill wouldn't just help the poor, but the state in general. Yet, WVA still strongly supports Trump.

Also, even small business owners who supported Trump have had to close up shop due to his tariff policies, and they still support him. These people are neither poor nor completely "uneducated".

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-man-voted-trump-131500350.html

Explain that one. The only explanation I can come up with is that they are brainwashed cult members.

Anonymous wrote:i agree that idiocy, culture, and ignorance play into this a lot.

But I've always thought there was more nuance to the question of why do poor states vote so GOP when GOP policies are so bad for the poor.

The US (and WVA) have pretty low voter turnout. Only 63% in WVA. Voting correlates with income and education; the more income and educaiton you have, the more likely you are to vote. The poor have pretty low voter turnout.

So imagine in WVA you are the guy who finished 2 years community college and has gone to your shitty job at Walmart every day for 5 years and now you're manager and making $22 an hour. Your income still sucks but.... you're likely above the line of getting any government social programs (no medicaid, SNAP, housing support etc). You probably have enough money to live in an area not completely ravaged by environmental ruin. You also probably vote. Now you look around your shitty state, and you're surrounded by drop outs, drug users, people having babies with multiple kids, people who are perpetually unemployed, don't even bother getting jobs, people in and out of jail. Like, run of the mill red state poverty. Of course, dcum readers know that there are a lot of institutional and other factors that result in that kind of poverty; but there's also obviously an element of free choice as relates to poverty (and whomever cracks the nut on where outside vs inside factors come into play on poverty should be a billionaire, but i digress....). So you're the guy getting up every to your crappy walmart job for $22 an hour for years surrounded by a lot of poor people who are not doing the same. And your experience and exposure to those poor people makes you more inclined to vote for policies that will hurt those poor people. And the poor people, as mentioned above, aren't actually voting at all. Like, the person who is making $8 an hour at walmart and not moving up the wage chain -- they've probably got some issues going on if after a few years they're not moving up the employment chain -- so i'm guessing that person is not a voter at all. And when i'm a rich person in NOVA who has almost no exposure to poor people, my support of govt policies that help them is entirely theoretical (based on what i read in the news and my knowledge that poor people exist and need help). But when you're a middle class worker in UVA, your knowledge of the poor is very tangible. And that direct exposure may in fact make you far less sympathetic to poor people and the govt policies that help them.

In other words, instead of asking "Why do poor people in poor states vote for policies that hurt them?", I'd assume that poor people in poor states who benefit from the main govt programs (medicaid, SNAP, housing) mostly don't vote at all, but the higher number of poor people in poor states makes the working middle class and above (ie the people who do vote, and who do not benefit from medicaid, SNAP, housing) less sympathetic to poor people and the policies that help them. Hence, you end up with MORE people in red poor states voting against govt programs that help the poor non-voters in their states.

Obviously, working people benefit from other govt programs that may be impacted by Trump or not, but those are buried deep in the details -- and the average american (rich, poor, educated or not) doesn't really understand nor vote on those issues.

But main point: If i'm working class in WVA and surrounded by a bunch of (to me) unemployed lazy bums who use drugs and don't bother showing up to work half the time and then coast on unemployment for 6 months, I might be inclined to vote for Trump too. Exposure to poverty probably makes the non-poor less sympathetic to poverty.

Anonymous wrote:Because there are a lot of people willing to take a hit so long as they believe others lower in the hierarchy are going to get it worse. That's what MAGA is about. They are trying to put society back the way it was when things were good for them, ie. a return to strict racial, gender, and class hierarchies.

The fundamental difference between conservatives and liberals/progressives is their view on the purpose of government. Conservatives believe government exists to enforce "the rule of law" and social hierarchy (although this is usually the quiet part). Liberals and progressives believe government is supposed to serve the public and provide services. Conservatives see that and taxation as theft and counter to what government is supposed to do.

So MAGA fundamentally does not believe they will be affected by these policies because THEY are the good ones, the ones deserving of government services, and all these women/POC/Jews/Immigrants/your scapegoat of choice are taking from them. And when MAGA finds themselves on the wrong end of policies, well it's an isolated incident. That was just a bad cop. That ICE agent made a mistake. It's never the broader policy that is the issue.

You will not reach these people using logic. The entire ideology is based in their feelings and fears. The only way they will be reached is when they can no longer deny what is plainly true, and when they and people like them are suffering en masse. Higher grocery prices is starting to work, but I think the pain will have to become far more acute before they start using their brains.

Anonymous wrote:Seriously?

The reason they had the grants is because the government shut down the coal mines.

This is such a dumb, dishonest question.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another possibility is that voters value a lot more than just economics. that might be inconvenient for you, but it's reality.

Like what specifically? What does Trump offer them?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Another possibility is that voters value a lot more than just economics. that might be inconvenient for you, but it's reality.

Like what specifically? What does Trump offer them?