Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.

Get a postnup.

That is making a major assumption that OP would be able to save more with a post nup or separate accounts. It sounds like OP is demanding extreme enough savings that 1/2 of what they earn collectively (and there is no guarantee that OP would get 1/2) would not meet their individual expenses and savings needs.OP has yet to say anything about their actual finances or what their partner spends on. Makes me think OP is a crazy saver.

OP here. I don't want to give away personal details. I am a saver and prefer to retire relatively early, as my job is a grind. DH is a spender, and he takes out debt to spend. You might describe me as a crazy saver and him as a crazy spender because we are both on opposite ends of the spectrum. Our mortgage is already 3x our combined annual income, and he wants to buy something else right now that would be financed entirely by debt, including a HELOC for the down payment that would bring our total debt-to-income ratio to 45%. It would mean there isn't a glide path to retirement for either of us for a very long time, and put us at significant risk if either of us loses a job or there is a recession.

So... don't sign for the HELOC. He's asking you to incur debt that uses your residence as collateral to finance what, a boat? A fancy car? A depreciating asset. Heck no, I would not sign that. I would not use a HELOC to fund home upgrades, let alone anything else. If y'all can't afford it any other way, y'all can't afford it.

Definitely not signing a HELOC, and as far as I can tell, my spouse can't unilaterally take one out because we're both on the deed. I want to be able to accommodate the thing they want, but we would have to finance the whole thing with debt because we already have almost no liquidity, and it would bring our total debt-to-income ratio of our combined income up to 45%, and that doesn't even include any additional debt he has, which, off the top of my head, puts us well above a 50% DTI on our combined income. We also have a lot of expenses related to owning a stupidly large house, and likely, some upcoming expenses associated with aging in-laws. It's just gotten so absolutely crazy making at the moment that I keep coming back to feeling like the only way out is divorce. It's that or lose my mind.

OP, divorce may not be a terrible idea, especially if things are trending into the resentment category. You have both grown and changed since you've gotten married. Priorities have changed. It happens, it's no one's fault. You're just not compatible as a couple anymore.

If your DH desperately needs the house to fund whatever plan he has, he can buy out your portion. Once you've disentangled yourself and your finances, go ahead and try to repair the relationship or co-parent in whatever way you find is best. But it doesn't sound like there is a way to resolve things from what you've described.

I'm glad to hear you can support yourself with your salary. Good luck OP, I wish you peace and an early retirement.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.

Get a postnup.

That is making a major assumption that OP would be able to save more with a post nup or separate accounts. It sounds like OP is demanding extreme enough savings that 1/2 of what they earn collectively (and there is no guarantee that OP would get 1/2) would not meet their individual expenses and savings needs.OP has yet to say anything about their actual finances or what their partner spends on. Makes me think OP is a crazy saver.

OP here. I don't want to give away personal details. I am a saver and prefer to retire relatively early, as my job is a grind. DH is a spender, and he takes out debt to spend. You might describe me as a crazy saver and him as a crazy spender because we are both on opposite ends of the spectrum. Our mortgage is already 3x our combined annual income, and he wants to buy something else right now that would be financed entirely by debt, including a HELOC for the down payment that would bring our total debt-to-income ratio to 45%. It would mean there isn't a glide path to retirement for either of us for a very long time, and put us at significant risk if either of us loses a job or there is a recession.

So... don't sign for the HELOC. He's asking you to incur debt that uses your residence as collateral to finance what, a boat? A fancy car? A depreciating asset. Heck no, I would not sign that. I would not use a HELOC to fund home upgrades, let alone anything else. If y'all can't afford it any other way, y'all can't afford it.

Definitely not signing a HELOC, and as far as I can tell, my spouse can't unilaterally take one out because we're both on the deed. I want to be able to accommodate the thing they want, but we would have to finance the whole thing with debt because we already have almost no liquidity, and it would bring our total debt-to-income ratio of our combined income up to 45%, and that doesn't even include any additional debt he has, which, off the top of my head, puts us well above a 50% DTI on our combined income. We also have a lot of expenses related to owning a stupidly large house, and likely, some upcoming expenses associated with aging in-laws. It's just gotten so absolutely crazy making at the moment that I keep coming back to feeling like the only way out is divorce. It's that or lose my mind.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.

Get a postnup.

That is making a major assumption that OP would be able to save more with a post nup or separate accounts. It sounds like OP is demanding extreme enough savings that 1/2 of what they earn collectively (and there is no guarantee that OP would get 1/2) would not meet their individual expenses and savings needs.OP has yet to say anything about their actual finances or what their partner spends on. Makes me think OP is a crazy saver.

OP here. I don't want to give away personal details. I am a saver and prefer to retire relatively early, as my job is a grind. DH is a spender, and he takes out debt to spend. You might describe me as a crazy saver and him as a crazy spender because we are both on opposite ends of the spectrum. Our mortgage is already 3x our combined annual income, and he wants to buy something else right now that would be financed entirely by debt, including a HELOC for the down payment that would bring our total debt-to-income ratio to 45%. It would mean there isn't a glide path to retirement for either of us for a very long time, and put us at significant risk if either of us loses a job or there is a recession.

So... don't sign for the HELOC. He's asking you to incur debt that uses your residence as collateral to finance what, a boat? A fancy car? A depreciating asset. Heck no, I would not sign that. I would not use a HELOC to fund home upgrades, let alone anything else. If y'all can't afford it any other way, y'all can't afford it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.

Get a postnup.

That is making a major assumption that OP would be able to save more with a post nup or separate accounts. It sounds like OP is demanding extreme enough savings that 1/2 of what they earn collectively (and there is no guarantee that OP would get 1/2) would not meet their individual expenses and savings needs.OP has yet to say anything about their actual finances or what their partner spends on. Makes me think OP is a crazy saver.

OP here. I don't want to give away personal details. I am a saver and prefer to retire relatively early, as my job is a grind. DH is a spender, and he takes out debt to spend. You might describe me as a crazy saver and him as a crazy spender because we are both on opposite ends of the spectrum. Our mortgage is already 3x our combined annual income, and he wants to buy something else right now that would be financed entirely by debt, including a HELOC for the down payment that would bring our total debt-to-income ratio to 45%. It would mean there isn't a glide path to retirement for either of us for a very long time, and put us at significant risk if either of us loses a job or there is a recession.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.

Get a postnup.

That is making a major assumption that OP would be able to save more with a post nup or separate accounts. It sounds like OP is demanding extreme enough savings that 1/2 of what they earn collectively (and there is no guarantee that OP would get 1/2) would not meet their individual expenses and savings needs.OP has yet to say anything about their actual finances or what their partner spends on. Makes me think OP is a crazy saver.

OP here. I don't want to give away personal details. I am a saver and prefer to retire relatively early, as my job is a grind. DH is a spender, and he takes out debt to spend. You might describe me as a crazy saver and him as a crazy spender because we are both on opposite ends of the spectrum. Our mortgage is already 3x our combined annual income, and he wants to buy something else right now that would be financed entirely by debt, including a HELOC for the down payment that would bring our total debt-to-income ratio to 45%. It would mean there isn't a glide path to retirement for either of us for a very long time, and put us at significant risk if either of us loses a job or there is a recession.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.

Get a postnup.

That is making a major assumption that OP would be able to save more with a post nup or separate accounts. It sounds like OP is demanding extreme enough savings that 1/2 of what they earn collectively (and there is no guarantee that OP would get 1/2) would not meet their individual expenses and savings needs.OP has yet to say anything about their actual finances or what their partner spends on. Makes me think OP is a crazy saver.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.

Get a postnup.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

YOu need marriage therapy STAT. And separate your finances if they don't make changes. And quite frankly, I would consider separating, as I couldn't live with someone who differed so greatly on such a major issue in our lives.

We're already in therapy. It has resulted in some empathetic conversations, which have helped us better understand each other's positions, but it has not solved our conflict. Separate finances will be complicated and require compromise upfront rather than just giving an ultimatum, as we have a large mortgage in both our names that I could not afford to pay alone, so if they stop contributing in retaliation, I'm toast.

Separate finances won't help you, because your spender spouse will keep accumulating debt anyway, and if you are married you could be still legally bound to pay it off. You need to stop contributing your income and let that account go negative. It doesn't matter that you earn less. Whatever you earn gives safety net to your spending spouse. It's because in spender's minds their earnings are their own to do as they please, but family needs this money, except they don't realize this until the other spouse stops contributing and suddenly they literally cannot make the ends meet. In that case the only way is to start cutting spending and changing habits. Most people aren't too far gone to keep accumulating debt knowing they are in the red every month.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

YOu need marriage therapy STAT. And separate your finances if they don't make changes. And quite frankly, I would consider separating, as I couldn't live with someone who differed so greatly on such a major issue in our lives.

We're already in therapy. It has resulted in some empathetic conversations, which have helped us better understand each other's positions, but it has not solved our conflict. Separate finances will be complicated and require compromise upfront rather than just giving an ultimatum, as we have a large mortgage in both our names that I could not afford to pay alone, so if they stop contributing in retaliation, I'm toast.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a saver, spouse is an impulse spender. Spouse is also older than me (65 and 60), and retired. Able to retire because I am such a good saver and don't blow money on wants - I'm practical and have always spend on needs. And, we would talk budget each year, talk about savings goals, and luckily we were mostly on the same page. Always maxed 401(k) plans at work made it easier - can't spend the money you don't have. I did all the grocery shopping (meal planning, buying in season and on sale), and we discussed any big spending (usually home improvement or travel). Spouse's impulsive spending was usually not big ticket (we're at the airport, need to buy a large Starbucks drink, or we're on vacation and they feel they will never get to buy a fill-in-the-blank again because we won't be back there, or saw some cool gadget that a friend has and wants one). We both agreed early on that either could spend as they want, and anything over $1,000 we needed to discuss with each other first.

I will be retiring in 1-3 years, my choice to work while spouse retired.

You think a person who occasionally buys a Starbucks on vacation is spender? What's the point of living if you can't enjoy a simple pleasure from time to time without being termed a "spender?" Honestly it sounds like you have an unhealthy savings problem.

--not a spender or saver

IF that Starbucks purchases put you over your vacation budget, then it is an issue.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

YOu need marriage therapy STAT. And separate your finances if they don't make changes. And quite frankly, I would consider separating, as I couldn't live with someone who differed so greatly on such a major issue in our lives.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. For those of you going on about Starbucks or even $1000 purses, our problem is much bigger than that. I could bury my head in the sand if it were a couple of thousand dollars of discretionary spending. My spouse is taking out significant debt to finance non-essential things I don't value. My need for financial security directly conflicts with their need to spend (finance) big-ticket items I don't value. They believe things will work out, income will continue to grow, and illiquid investments will pay off. I am holding them back, and they are causing me anxiety.

That sucks, OP. You need to keep finances 100% separate (which could be tough depending on who is the bigger breadwinner). No co-signing. No exceptions. If you can't do that while married... then you're next decision is a tough one. This is bigger than saver vs spender. This is a difference in values and willingness to compromise.

We're already in therapy. We have some degree of separation and shared accounts. We have an irresolvable, zero-sum conflict that has created so much resentment. I've tried and failed to find a middle ground. Staying married means (i) forcing my will on my spouse and living with their resentment over not being able to take out debt and spend freely, or (ii) allowing them to force their will on me, and living with the anxiety I feel every month as our checking account goes to zero. Unfortunately, as the lower-earning and spending spouse, I can't make and save enough separate money to compensate for the debt they can incur. But I do make enough money to support myself if we divorce.