Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You clearly have never employed anyone or otherwise run a competitive retail/agriculture type business.

Because the questions you are asking suggest either no employment history or solely white collar type history like a lawyer or someone who otherwise sits behind a keyboard all day.

Funny you mention this. My dad owned a business that employed illegal immigrants. He tried to hire citizens, and he tried to get his employees on visas, but it never worked out, the citizens tended not to be as reliable of workers and he was too small of a shop to be successful on the visa front.

You are correct that my dad would not have been able to stay afloat if he had to hire citizens at higher wages, but that is only because literally every other similar small business was also employing illegal immigrants. If they were all subjected to the same playing field, then the industry would have to change and some businesses might not survive, but that would not be predicated on whether or not they employed illegal inmigrants.

Your dad's business was simply not economically viable. So he broke the law.

Hard to say it was not viable because we never had a control group. Every other small business in his industry did the same. All of those businesses would have had to operate on a very different model had there not been a supply of illegal immigrant labor.

From an economic standpoint, it does not matter that much whether the immigration is legal or illegal except that illegal immigrants are more exploitable and therefore easier to subject to bad working conditions and low wages. Over the past several years, much of the migration was authorized via TPS or whatever program, but legal or not, a surge of low skilled labor is going to have a similar effect on labor markets.

And yes, there are some industries that would not be able to survive without illegal immigrant labor. If prices go up due to labor costs, then people will have to make choices where to spend their money. Obviously they need food. They do not need pedicures.

Our world as we know it has been heavily shaped by the steady availability of cheap labor. Large houses on suburban lots requiring maintenance inside and outside come to mind. If cheap house cleaners and landscapers weren’t available, a lot fewer people would want those large suburban houses. Not to mention the people needed to build those houses. Suburban sprawl is enabled by cheap immigrant labor.

Same thing with plantation houses. They were only viable because of the cheap labor. People adapt though. Hopefully it doesn’t take a war this time.

How exactly did they adapt? Oh yes, the wealthy white slave owners lost some slaves, but still retained their power, and lots of people went hungry.

Today, the taxpayers fund the big farm corporations, and the smaller farmers are going bankrupt

https://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2025/07/farm-bankruptcies-this-year-already-exceed-2024-levels/

So, yea, I guess we could go back to post 1865 where the rich farmers stayed rich, and the smaller farms went bankrupt, and food was scarce.

MAGA are telling poor people to make better food choices, but then at the same time say "we don't need cheap produce". So, you expect poor people to eat healthier while at the same time gutting food programs, medicaid, and increase food prices.

The mind of a MAGA. And if OP is not MAGA, OP is just as dumb.

Interesting take. Yes, war has a tendency to impoverish societies and cause hunger. The civil war created a lot of poverty. Should we not have fought it, and kept people enslaved?

Maybe yeah? Boycott Confederate cotton. Protect escaped slaves and cultivate the Underground Railroad. Sponsor slave uprisings and clandestine operations by free Blacks and abolitionists from the north. Secure the border. Coordinate with Europe and Mexico to disrupt the Confederate economy and prevent the slave trade. Offer economic incentive for the Confederacy to reform.

please. They tried all of that. Did you learn what happened during the civil war? The British helped the south by buying their cotton and supplying them arms.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You clearly have never employed anyone or otherwise run a competitive retail/agriculture type business.

Because the questions you are asking suggest either no employment history or solely white collar type history like a lawyer or someone who otherwise sits behind a keyboard all day.

Funny you mention this. My dad owned a business that employed illegal immigrants. He tried to hire citizens, and he tried to get his employees on visas, but it never worked out, the citizens tended not to be as reliable of workers and he was too small of a shop to be successful on the visa front.

You are correct that my dad would not have been able to stay afloat if he had to hire citizens at higher wages, but that is only because literally every other similar small business was also employing illegal immigrants. If they were all subjected to the same playing field, then the industry would have to change and some businesses might not survive, but that would not be predicated on whether or not they employed illegal inmigrants.

Your dad's business was simply not economically viable. So he broke the law.

Hard to say it was not viable because we never had a control group. Every other small business in his industry did the same. All of those businesses would have had to operate on a very different model had there not been a supply of illegal immigrant labor.

From an economic standpoint, it does not matter that much whether the immigration is legal or illegal except that illegal immigrants are more exploitable and therefore easier to subject to bad working conditions and low wages. Over the past several years, much of the migration was authorized via TPS or whatever program, but legal or not, a surge of low skilled labor is going to have a similar effect on labor markets.

And yes, there are some industries that would not be able to survive without illegal immigrant labor. If prices go up due to labor costs, then people will have to make choices where to spend their money. Obviously they need food. They do not need pedicures.

Our world as we know it has been heavily shaped by the steady availability of cheap labor. Large houses on suburban lots requiring maintenance inside and outside come to mind. If cheap house cleaners and landscapers weren’t available, a lot fewer people would want those large suburban houses. Not to mention the people needed to build those houses. Suburban sprawl is enabled by cheap immigrant labor.

Same thing with plantation houses. They were only viable because of the cheap labor. People adapt though. Hopefully it doesn’t take a war this time.

How exactly did they adapt? Oh yes, the wealthy white slave owners lost some slaves, but still retained their power, and lots of people went hungry.

Today, the taxpayers fund the big farm corporations, and the smaller farmers are going bankrupt

https://farmpolicynews.illinois.edu/2025/07/farm-bankruptcies-this-year-already-exceed-2024-levels/

So, yea, I guess we could go back to post 1865 where the rich farmers stayed rich, and the smaller farms went bankrupt, and food was scarce.

MAGA are telling poor people to make better food choices, but then at the same time say "we don't need cheap produce". So, you expect poor people to eat healthier while at the same time gutting food programs, medicaid, and increase food prices.

The mind of a MAGA. And if OP is not MAGA, OP is just as dumb.

Interesting take. Yes, war has a tendency to impoverish societies and cause hunger. The civil war created a lot of poverty. Should we not have fought it, and kept people enslaved?

Maybe yeah? Boycott Confederate cotton. Protect escaped slaves and cultivate the Underground Railroad. Sponsor slave uprisings and clandestine operations by free Blacks and abolitionists from the north. Secure the border. Coordinate with Europe and Mexico to disrupt the Confederate economy and prevent the slave trade. Offer economic incentive for the Confederacy to reform.

Americana are soft and weak, and we need to import people who know how to build.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.

Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?

So we should exploit people so that low income people can afford strawberries??

More people can grow their own. Or be paid a higher wage with less downward pressure on wages, and might even be able to splurge on $15 strawberries sometimes.
And maybe they don’t need to be a year round readily available thing.

The world is changing. Maybe teach your kids some practical skills.

1. do you think people in urban areas (where most people in this country live) can grow their own food? Seriously? Oh, they should move to rural areas and live in communes and grow their own food?
2. If farmers pay a higher wage, you realize that the cost will be passed on to consumers, right? At that point, the only people who will be able to afford eating fresh produce is wealthy people. This is not just about strawberries, which is already kind of expensive.
3. We already import produce from other countries, especially during our winter. Or are you saying that we should all live a substance living, and only eat what we can farm?

I don't know about you, but I don't relish living like a third world country where we can't get fresh produce year round.

Farmers can't raise wages that much higher without going out of business. There is an inflection point where raising the wages causes food prices to go up so much so that the demand will go down so much so that it will not be viable for a farmer to stay in business. As it is, taxpayers already subsidize farmers.

Farmers have, in the past, tried to increase wages to attract American workers. It didn't work because this type of job is back breaking, something most Americans now are not used to.

If you are suggesting that Americans should go work on farms, I would suggest you and your children can go first.

So it sounds like you’re cool with exploiting people from third world countries so that you don’t have to live like someone in a third world country. Got it.

I'm a realist. There will always be an underclass. People from third world countries want to come here because low wage jobs here are still better than life in their poor home country.

And before you call me elitist, my parents were those people -- low wage, low skilled, spoke no English. They worked low wage jobs here to give us, their kids, a better life. I'm very grateful that they sacrificed leaving everything and everyone they knew at home to provide a better life for us. My kids are now beneficiaries of my parents' sacrifices.

If you talk to an illegal immigrant, they will tell you the same - that as hard as their lives are here, they at least have a chance to give their kids a better life. I have known some illegal immigrants. They work hard, and want what we all want - a good life for their kids.

I'm not saying we should pay them below minimum wage. I posted the link showing how much farm workers make. They can make $20/hour, which is *a lot* for them. Why do you think so many of them send remittances back home?

My father was a blue collar worker in a factory, and took the night shift because it paid 25 cents more per hour. It was tough for him. Do you think he was exploited? What were his choices? Go back to a war torn, third world country, or work for lower pay here to provide a better life for his family?

Of course, low wage workers should be treated fairly, and some are being exploited, but some are able to eek out a living to give their kids a better life and even send money home.

What do you think those migrant workers would do if they went back home? That doesn't mean we should exploit them, but seems to me, that getting paid $15+/hour is better than no job back home. And that's why they keep coming back.

There is no way in h3ll your kids (or mine) will take those back breaking jobs. You are being unrealistic. You sound like we should all live in a commune. Be my guest if that is what you want.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

Are our citizens truly inadequate? If they are, why is that? Is that at static condition, or subject to change?

I meant inadequate numbers of applicants. I work in healthcare (hospital med surg nursing) and we cannot hire enough RNs, nor can nursing schools churn out enough, to meet demand. Maybe expand nursing schools and public service loan forgiveness because we cannot hire enough, and often enough those hired jump to ICU or labor/delivery, etc. within a year or two. Not hiring anyone without proper documentation, but many immigrants fill these roles and we do need them.

+1 many immigrants take on jobs like home healthcare aids. We will need more of them as our population ages, and birthrates decline. We already have a demographic cliff.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.

There will always be an underclass. That is how society works. Even communes have a people on the top and bottom.

I think farmers should provide decent wages and living conditions for farm workers, and we need to have a fair work visa system. But, in 2025, there is no way American workers will work in the hot sun for 8+hours even for $20+ per hour. It is backbreaking work.

CA median wage for farm worker is $24.59.

https://labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/aspdotnet/SupportPage/AllOESWage.aspx?soccode=452099

Federal minimum wage is $7.5, but CA pays way above minimum wage.

Minimum wage for farm workers - as you can guess, the red states pay the lowest.

https://nationalaglawcenter.org/state-compilations/agpay/minimumwage/

These red states don't want foreign workers, but they don't want to pay living wages for backbreaking work. Oh, that's right, they want medicaid recipients to do the work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

Are our citizens truly inadequate? If they are, why is that? Is that at static condition, or subject to change?

I meant inadequate numbers of applicants. I work in healthcare (hospital med surg nursing) and we cannot hire enough RNs, nor can nursing schools churn out enough, to meet demand. Maybe expand nursing schools and public service loan forgiveness because we cannot hire enough, and often enough those hired jump to ICU or labor/delivery, etc. within a year or two. Not hiring anyone without proper documentation, but many immigrants fill these roles and we do need them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.

Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?

So we should exploit people so that low income people can afford strawberries??

More people can grow their own. Or be paid a higher wage with less downward pressure on wages, and might even be able to splurge on $15 strawberries sometimes.
And maybe they don’t need to be a year round readily available thing.

The world is changing. Maybe teach your kids some practical skills.

Rabbits savage the strawberries. But if we all get poor enough, we’ll have to start eating the rabbits. So that might help. We grow various berries in our yard. It’s a nice thing to do if you have some space.

It might become a necessary thing to do.

I think what people don’t understand is that Trump is really about taking us back to the 19th century.

Before we had the Fed, there were depressions, crashes, and financial panics all the time. It’s in any US history book.

While this is still kind of a fringe idea, some people on the right wing side of the political divide want to get rid of the federal reserve.

In the end, the sort of plan (I use that term loosely) is to make the country much poorer for the vast majority. The 20th century will be undone and when we will be back to the 19th century.

That means you will be growing potatoes. That means you might have to work a really low wage job. It could get really ugly. Thinking ahead and being flexible is a good idea.

It remains to be seen what kind of political resistance there would be if we took some major steps in that direction. It’s simply too soon to tell.

But across the industrialized world, it’s clear that average citizens don’t want huge waves of immigration. I might personally disagree, but I’m clearly not in the majority.

HEAVEN FORBID white people have to work on farms and do manual labor.
Everyone knows the definition of progress is making sure we have enough poor brown people around to do those jobs.

I’m the PP that agrees that it’s ethically wrong and that mass migration is becoming politically toxic. So you can knock it off with your nonsense.

Thank you for admitting that the political project is to lower the standard of living. It’s practically Maoist. Return to the land and work like a peasant. Only not the communist part.

It may end the same way regardless.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.

Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?

So we should exploit people so that low income people can afford strawberries??

More people can grow their own. Or be paid a higher wage with less downward pressure on wages, and might even be able to splurge on $15 strawberries sometimes.
And maybe they don’t need to be a year round readily available thing.

The world is changing. Maybe teach your kids some practical skills.

1. do you think people in urban areas (where most people in this country live) can grow their own food? Seriously? Oh, they should move to rural areas and live in communes and grow their own food?
2. If farmers pay a higher wage, you realize that the cost will be passed on to consumers, right? At that point, the only people who will be able to afford eating fresh produce is wealthy people. This is not just about strawberries, which is already kind of expensive.
3. We already import produce from other countries, especially during our winter. Or are you saying that we should all live a substance living, and only eat what we can farm?

I don't know about you, but I don't relish living like a third world country where we can't get fresh produce year round.

Farmers can't raise wages that much higher without going out of business. There is an inflection point where raising the wages causes food prices to go up so much so that the demand will go down so much so that it will not be viable for a farmer to stay in business. As it is, taxpayers already subsidize farmers.

Farmers have, in the past, tried to increase wages to attract American workers. It didn't work because this type of job is back breaking, something most Americans now are not used to.

If you are suggesting that Americans should go work on farms, I would suggest you and your children can go first.

So it sounds like you’re cool with exploiting people from third world countries so that you don’t have to live like someone in a third world country. Got it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do idiots insist on posting drivel threads? Go educate yourself about on economic theory and unintended consequences, then look up stagflation in Japan.

Stagflation? In Japan? Huh?

Stagnation. For 30 years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.

Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?

So we should exploit people so that low income people can afford strawberries??

More people can grow their own. Or be paid a higher wage with less downward pressure on wages, and might even be able to splurge on $15 strawberries sometimes.
And maybe they don’t need to be a year round readily available thing.

The world is changing. Maybe teach your kids some practical skills.

Rabbits savage the strawberries. But if we all get poor enough, we’ll have to start eating the rabbits. So that might help. We grow various berries in our yard. It’s a nice thing to do if you have some space.

It might become a necessary thing to do.

I think what people don’t understand is that Trump is really about taking us back to the 19th century.

Before we had the Fed, there were depressions, crashes, and financial panics all the time. It’s in any US history book.

While this is still kind of a fringe idea, some people on the right wing side of the political divide want to get rid of the federal reserve.

In the end, the sort of plan (I use that term loosely) is to make the country much poorer for the vast majority. The 20th century will be undone and when we will be back to the 19th century.

That means you will be growing potatoes. That means you might have to work a really low wage job. It could get really ugly. Thinking ahead and being flexible is a good idea.

It remains to be seen what kind of political resistance there would be if we took some major steps in that direction. It’s simply too soon to tell.

But across the industrialized world, it’s clear that average citizens don’t want huge waves of immigration. I might personally disagree, but I’m clearly not in the majority.

HEAVEN FORBID white people have to work on farms and do manual labor.
Everyone knows the definition of progress is making sure we have enough poor brown people around to do those jobs.

You go first. Which manual labor job will you choose?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.

Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?

So we should exploit people so that low income people can afford strawberries??

More people can grow their own. Or be paid a higher wage with less downward pressure on wages, and might even be able to splurge on $15 strawberries sometimes.
And maybe they don’t need to be a year round readily available thing.

The world is changing. Maybe teach your kids some practical skills.

Rabbits savage the strawberries. But if we all get poor enough, we’ll have to start eating the rabbits. So that might help. We grow various berries in our yard. It’s a nice thing to do if you have some space.

It might become a necessary thing to do.

I think what people don’t understand is that Trump is really about taking us back to the 19th century.

Before we had the Fed, there were depressions, crashes, and financial panics all the time. It’s in any US history book.

While this is still kind of a fringe idea, some people on the right wing side of the political divide want to get rid of the federal reserve.

In the end, the sort of plan (I use that term loosely) is to make the country much poorer for the vast majority. The 20th century will be undone and when we will be back to the 19th century.

That means you will be growing potatoes. That means you might have to work a really low wage job. It could get really ugly. Thinking ahead and being flexible is a good idea.

It remains to be seen what kind of political resistance there would be if we took some major steps in that direction. It’s simply too soon to tell.

But across the industrialized world, it’s clear that average citizens don’t want huge waves of immigration. I might personally disagree, but I’m clearly not in the majority.

HEAVEN FORBID white people have to work on farms and do manual labor.
Everyone knows the definition of progress is making sure we have enough poor brown people around to do those jobs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.

Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?

So we should exploit people so that low income people can afford strawberries??

More people can grow their own. Or be paid a higher wage with less downward pressure on wages, and might even be able to splurge on $15 strawberries sometimes.
And maybe they don’t need to be a year round readily available thing.

The world is changing. Maybe teach your kids some practical skills.

Rabbits savage the strawberries. But if we all get poor enough, we’ll have to start eating the rabbits. So that might help. We grow various berries in our yard. It’s a nice thing to do if you have some space.

It might become a necessary thing to do.

I think what people don’t understand is that Trump is really about taking us back to the 19th century.

Before we had the Fed, there were depressions, crashes, and financial panics all the time. It’s in any US history book.

While this is still kind of a fringe idea, some people on the right wing side of the political divide want to get rid of the federal reserve.

In the end, the sort of plan (I use that term loosely) is to make the country much poorer for the vast majority. The 20th century will be undone and when we will be back to the 19th century.

That means you will be growing potatoes. That means you might have to work a really low wage job. It could get really ugly. Thinking ahead and being flexible is a good idea.

It remains to be seen what kind of political resistance there would be if we took some major steps in that direction. It’s simply too soon to tell.

But across the industrialized world, it’s clear that average citizens don’t want huge waves of immigration. I might personally disagree, but I’m clearly not in the majority.

This image made me LOL.

The future if Trump's America: all of us eating straggly strawberries and chasing rabbits. There are worse outcomes....

From Grok:

At least 50-60 countries globally import low-skilled labor for agriculture or similar physically demanding jobs, based on patterns in high-income and select middle-income countries. This includes major agricultural producers in North America, Europe, parts of Asia, and a few in Africa and Latin America. The number could be higher if informal migration is factored in, but hard data is limited.

Pick a developed country—any country—and I will tell you what countries they import labor from.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.