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Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

You seem really ticked off. You brought up physics, this is why it's being mentioned, so if you didn't want to talk about it, please don't bring it up. Welcome to discussions.
What upper div Williams Requires: Electricity and Magnetism, Vibration Waves and Optics (Intro, also known as "Baby," Quantum Mechanics), Math Methods, Quantum Physics (Big Quantum), Statistical Mechanics and Thermo
What upper div Bowdoin Requires: Electric Fields and Circuits (E&M), Quantum Physics and Relativity, Statistical Physics (This is Stat mech and thermo). Bowdoin tucks Baby Quantum into Intro Physics II.
I genuinely don't think you know anything about Physics. These are core classes you need to be able to apply to graduate study in Physics. Everyone takes these classes no matter the institution.

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Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

It’s not true that all required courses are the same, even among these two schools. Nor is true that the course descriptions cover the same topics, even among these two schools. They don’t even require the same number of labs. Or even the same number of physics courses. Or even the same number of total courses for the major.

It’s amusing you are arguing all this after conceding Williams is likely better for math. It is wise for physics majors to take extra math, usually the more the better.

But really we don’t need to look further than the physics PhD rates to see evidence the Willams program has some advantage.

Yes, as a matter of fact I do have a degree in physics (from a school whose required curriculum is very different from either of these.)

We are way off topic. OP never even mentioned physics. Their kid probably would like Bowdoin more given they are inquiring about claustrophobia.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Because required courses are shared across universities? Have you graduated/done physics? Everyone takes stat mech, mechanics, e&m, and quantum, electronics, and lower div transition courses across the us. You do the same courses at an even harder level in graduate school.

Anonymous wrote:Williams is far more well regarded

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

I don’t know why required courses wouldn’t count.

I see 5 courses at the 300 level or above this year, not all of which are required anyway.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

DP but I checked both spring 2025 course options.
Advanced Courses at Williams (That aren't major requirements for a physics major): None.
Advanced Courses at Bowdoin: The Physics of Black Holes, Methods of Experimental Physics, Methods of Computational Physics, Nuclear and Particle Physics
You may have just checked the flashy physics page, but for LACs you have to actually look into course catalogs, because classes often aren't taught for years.

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Anonymous wrote:Aren’t they the same size? Both are relatively isolated so go with where your kid likes best. Econ is a strength at Williams.

Bowdoin has an Amtrak station one block from campus. Literally 15 minutes from Freeport, quick trip to Portland or Boston. Small town Maine does not = isolation.

Brunswick downtown is also a walk from campus. Williamstown has no downtown to speak of — 1/2 a block of retail, on one side of the street. They are not a wash in terms of isolation. Yes, they are isolated both, but Williamstown is way, way more isolated.

It is small but more like two blocks, both sides of the street, hand picked to have everything a student will need. Nearby North Adams has a big art scene, and grocery stores, etc. To me, Maine seems more isolated but I think that’s just a function of it being further away, we were surprised how quickly we could get to Williams from Manhattan (4 hours door to door). YMMV

that big mountain looming in the distance makes it feel like siberia in the winter lol - it’s no joke in williamstown between November and March. At least Bowdoin is near the water, which to me always felt less smothering or trapped than I did in Williamstown

Different strokes for different folks. To many, the big mountain looming in the distance means tons of skiing, which is very appealing. Williamstown is tiny. But it has a pizza place, Chinese, pub, etc. It would admittedly likely get claustrophobic, but do a semester abroad. What good does water do you in the middle of a Maine winter except make it more cold?

People can argue that the mentality that Williams is better is dated. And they might be right. But this is the mentality of people who graduated from HS in the 90s, and guess who is hiring now? These people. You can tell them all you want that they need to change their opinions, but they don't have to do anything. From my highly competitive HS in the 90s, the only person who got into Williams turned it down for Yale. I knew plenty of kids who got rejected or waitlisted by Williams (and Amherst) who got into Ivies. People who strongly wanted Bowdoin weren't even considering Ivies as they had no chance. Bowdoin was more on par with Hamilton, Union, Colgate, etc.

Two of the smartest (and nicest, most interesting) people I knew in my top tier MBA class went to Williams. I don't think there were any Bowdoin alums. This is a ridiculously small sample size as two years later it might have been reversed. But it makes a difference.

I know things have changed. But it is hard to unwind this in people's minds.

I'd be surprised if most think of either, at all. They're good undergraduate colleges, but most I know just filter in the top 5 or so-Williams, Pomona, Swarthmore, Amherst, occasionally Midd/Wesleyan/even Haverford depending on age and think of them all alike. These colleges really haven't changed all that much; there's a few who are higher than they used to be: Claremont McKenna, Denison, more people aware of Harvey Mudd because of the recent stem craze, even Grinnell.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There seems to be more overt elitism with Williams. That’s probably unsurprising given a certain cross section of top students want to be able to say they went to the #1 ranked LAC. But there actually is a cross section of top students who are turned off by that vibe.

Both schools are great. I think Bowdoin has the better location. The academic pros/cons come down to field of study. For life sciences, environmental science, and poli sci, I would personally prefer Bowdoin because those depts are strong enough that I would give the edge to the location advantage. But for art, Econ, CS, math, and physics, I would probably go with Williams. Other majors I’d be on the fence about.

I will say the rest are probably very true, but I don't agree with Physics. There's really nothing special from either school when it comes to Physics and you can end up in great or mediocre places from both. Evaluating their curriculum and offerings, it's about the same, if not identical (which is expected, physics content is practically standardized across the United States).

I see a broader selection of advanced physics courses at Williams. They also appear to have a significantly higher PhD production rate in physics (14th vs unranked in top 50 by rate). The Apker award successes are a small sample size but a bonus.

Because Williams has more students overall in physics. It's going to be a very similar experience. It's not Harvey mudd.