Holy crap, English teachers. Your standards are so jumbly and illogically organized. I'm sorry VDOE gives you such a trash document.

By contrast, look how clear and concise the math ones I am given are: https://www.doe.virginia.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/48957/638315045918730000

Any smart kids reading this, do what I did:

Divide the work into four sections, do your part well. There will probably be another kid who will do his part moderately well. Then just let the dumb kids turn in terrible work.

The dumb kids will panic about this at the last minute when they realize you aren't doing their work for them. That might motivate them. Or not.

You will get a B. It will bring your overall grade down very slightly. It is what it is, the self respect is more important.

In an iterative game, other kids will know they can't just rely on you to do it.

The standards of learning comprise both content standards and skill/process standards. Collaborating is not and will never be a "content standard."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Communication and multimodal literacies are not content standards. They are skill/process standards that describe how students are expected to demonstrate or apply learning. It is unfortunate that, as a teacher of the English language, you are unable to comprehend the distinction.

They are literally in the STANDARDS OF LEARNING. Yes they are content standards because they involve SKILLS we must teach in the curriculum and assess. Who the hell told you group is work is new and standards aren’t standards?

The poster you’re responding to isn’t a teacher. They don’t know what standards are. I suspect all they know is that they were in a classroom once and therefore they THINK they can play the role of teacher.

Anonymous wrote:Communication and multimodal literacies are not content standards. They are skill/process standards that describe how students are expected to demonstrate or apply learning. It is unfortunate that, as a teacher of the English language, you are unable to comprehend the distinction.

They are literally in the STANDARDS OF LEARNING. Yes they are content standards because they involve SKILLS we must teach in the curriculum and assess. Who the hell told you group is work is new and standards aren’t standards?

Communication and multimodal literacies are not content standards. They are skill/process standards that describe how students are expected to demonstrate or apply learning. It is unfortunate that, as a teacher of the English language, you are unable to comprehend the distinction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my children they must do 100% of the work in the group project if they want 100% of the points. FCPS rules say they can't be graded on others' contributions but we know this is BS.

the projects have been fine once you get to AP classes. All the students are putting in the work there. Prior to that, it's a nightmare. And no, it is absolutely not the same as adults collaborating in the workplace. Last year my kid got dinged - she wrote the script for some skit and the 3 boys in her group decided to improvise the ending, thus producing a skit that did not meet the length requirements.

there's maybe been 1 project for AP history this year, no issues.

I take points from the kids who steamroll the others and try to do the whole project themselves. If your group members are trying to contribute and you’re shutting down their ideas, refusing to communicate and reach understanding, dictating what they can/can’t add to the project and then trying to present all the info, and generally bossing/dominating/shutting down and going solo instead of working as a team, you’re not collaborating and your not getting 100% of the point. Collaboration is a 2 way process. The same way the kids who don’t try to participate at all lose points, so do the ones who inhibit collaboration to retain total control this way.

I don't recall this happening. In my experience, the diligent kids tried their best to collaborate with the slackers who didn't listen and did not care. In the end, the diligent kids gave up and quietly did all the work so that when the slackers didn't do their parts (shocker!), there was actually a complete project to turn in.

I have a Type A girl and it can be both. One a recent English group project she was freaking out about the 2 kids who were using assigned class time for the project to goof off and planning on doing their portion (aka steamrolling) on the first day of work. I told her under no circumstances was she to do their work early on in the project, but she could prepare so that if they really didn't follow through she wouldn't be up until all hours the day it was due. At the end of the project 1 of the slackers had completed their work entirely and the other had done at least some so DD only had to fill in part of what she'd prepared.

DD can totally boss and dominate and she does need to work on stepping back. But also sometimes she's the only reason a project gets an A. So...balance.

Anonymous wrote:let me know how group work is a "content standard"

Oh boy. Yeah, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Here’s the English 10 standards.

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/home/showpublisheddocument/59026/638693485274230000

10.C.1 is Collaboration of Ideas. The sub standards are what the kids need to be able to do to demonstrate they can meet these standards. That’s the part we TEACH. Those are called SKILLS! How do you ASSESS if the kids can use those skills to demonstrate mastery of that collaboration content strand? An assignment where they must COLLABORATE… aka… a group project. As a bonus, we usually tie in 10.C.2 which is Presentation of Ideas.

let me know how group work is a "content standard"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP is a really good example of why teachers do need training to teach those content standards using group projects. (Also to that teacher - a content standard is not equivalent to the assessment format.)

Are you a teacher? Or are you simply someone who plays one online?

I don’t understand your post. Are you suggesting teachers don’t know the difference between a standard and an assessment? And how does PP illustrate this? I’ve been teaching for almost 25 years and don’t understand your point.

Pp doesn’t know that something can be a standard (collaborative work) and also an assessment method (group project). Just saying whatever as if they’re an expert- typical of this forum.

Anonymous wrote:PP is a really good example of why teachers do need training to teach those content standards using group projects. (Also to that teacher - a content standard is not equivalent to the assessment format.)

Are you a teacher? Or are you simply someone who plays one online?

I don’t understand your post. Are you suggesting teachers don’t know the difference between a standard and an assessment? And how does PP illustrate this? I’ve been teaching for almost 25 years and don’t understand your point.

PP is a really good example of why teachers do need training to teach those content standards using group projects. (Also to that teacher - a content standard is not equivalent to the assessment format.)

No I’m My kid was in a HS group project and had to do everything. Teacher told them ahead of time that they would each submit a document listing what he/she did AND would submit a joint doc outlining what each did. Was clear that kids would be graded only on what was listed.

My kid’s partner was honest and listed only things like:

- offered my home for the first meeting
- we used my paper and pencils

My kid’s list was long and from it, it was known kid did everything.

Both got As.

Anonymous wrote:So teachers that love these - which of you are explicitly teaching skills for succeeding in these projects? There seems to be zero scaffolding to help kids succeed. Teachers also seem not to admit that they don’t have the skills to properly grade or monitor the projects/participants.

What on earth? Are you routinely grilled by people not in your field of work and told to justify how you do everything within the scope of your job and prove you do it well? No teacher has to come in here and beg you to approve of us TEACHING A CONTENT STANDARD in our curriculum.

Anonymous wrote:So teachers that love these - which of you are explicitly teaching skills for succeeding in these projects? There seems to be zero scaffolding to help kids succeed. Teachers also seem not to admit that they don’t have the skills to properly grade or monitor the projects/participants.

How extensive is your experience? Have you really popped into multiple classrooms to see what teachers do/do not have the skill to do?

I personally hate group work, but I have to incorporate it. It takes a day of prep to even begin group work at the start of the year, talking students through the various pitfalls and looking at scenarios. We review midyear.

As for monitoring, it’s HARD. Group work days are more work for me than straight lecture. (Another reason I hate it.) I also have to grade the project PLUS each individual’s work reflection, so that adds to my load.