LOTS of unhooked kids get into T10/ivy every year, even in RD. Some superstars get into multiple. None are "just" smart. All in the unhooked group are extremely smart with top stats, and have 2-3 ECs they really care about and have made an impact, great Letters of Rec. If the kid does not really care about anything outside of school then nothing in the T20 will be a fit for them anyway, and they have zero chance of a T10, no matter how smart they are. There are too many unhookeds who check the super smart + EC +top recs, plus plus plus...and most of these that check all the boxes will still not get in to T10 but most of these get in to T20-25. There is no room left for just smart.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So if all the kids with hooks like legacy, athletics, first gen, national awards and pro level art go to HYPS, what is the best schools for normal, extremely smart, hardworking kids with normal ec's? I think I'd like my dc to be surrounded by kids that fall into the latter group.

I'm not sure what you mean by "normal" ECs, but there are lots of schools that want the best and brightest regardless of legacy and connections and hooks -

MIT
Rice
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Chicago
CalTech
Cornell
Johns Hopkins
Notre Dame
CMU
WashU
Emory
Harvey Mudd
Pomona
Bowdoin
Swarthmore
Michigan
Berkeley
UCLA
Georgia Tech
West Point
Annapolis
Air Force

And the honors programs at most state flagships will have super smart and accomplished students, particularly these days as more and more families are priced out of private universities.

Vandy not only has a parent legacy but also a sibling legacy. ND gives more of a legacy bump than literally any other college. NW also has a very strong kegracy preference. Maybe don’t answer if you don’t know.

+1 The sibling legacy is real at Vanderbilt.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:are we calling full pay a hook? does "without hooks" mean you need financial aid?

This is DCUM. Any characteristic that OP’s kid doesn’t have is a hook.

That is the definition.

+100000 the definition of “hook” is getting very broad. Like basically OP is saying having high test scores and great EC’s is a hook. Those aren’t hooks, those are variables that make a student competitive.

Anonymous wrote:So if all the kids with hooks like legacy, athletics, first gen, national awards and pro level art go to HYPS, what is the best schools for normal, extremely smart, hardworking kids with normal ec's? I think I'd like my dc to be surrounded by kids that fall into the latter group.

HYPS

Plenty of kids without hooks are admitted to top schools. Just make sure your child is exceptionally accomplished.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:my unhooked kids got into HYP by building a compelling narrative. I'm assuming your extremely smart kid didn't sit home every summer. what's the common thread. lean into that this summer.

then your kid is as compelling as any other.

hooked kids have a nice bump, but the fact remains that most kids get in aren't an athlete or legacy or first gen.

You may have gotten lucky. But in very competitive areas like NYC & DMV, it often takes more than a couple of summers of the same activity. I know kids with amazing narratives and truly deep ECs (not to mention top grades + scores) who still got rejected from every Ivy.

Looks like bad choices (bad choice of major; not a tightly curated application; essays weren't standout or stellar and didn't evoke emotion; nothing unusual or memorable outside the "norm" in the application; no ordinary pt job). All of these things help make a kid compelling.

It seems that the link posted earlier for the Princeton Review site, "Their Students Love These Colleges," was incomplete. This is the correct link:

https://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings/?rankings=their-students-love-these-colleges

Anonymous wrote:University of Iowa doesn't look at any of that stuff. Just plugs your GPA and ACT/SAT into a formula. Go Hawkeyes!

My kid was accepted into Iowa in under 48 hours. It was their preferred rolling over Pitt and Minnesota b/c they don't like urban schools.

Anonymous wrote:my unhooked kids got into HYP by building a compelling narrative. I'm assuming your extremely smart kid didn't sit home every summer. what's the common thread. lean into that this summer.

then your kid is as compelling as any other.

hooked kids have a nice bump, but the fact remains that most kids get in aren't an athlete or legacy or first gen.

You may have gotten lucky. But in very competitive areas like NYC & DMV, it often takes more than a couple of summers of the same activity. I know kids with amazing narratives and truly deep ECs (not to mention top grades + scores) who still got rejected from every Ivy.

Anonymous wrote:my unhooked kids got into HYP by building a compelling narrative. I'm assuming your extremely smart kid didn't sit home every summer. what's the common thread. lean into that this summer.

then your kid is as compelling as any other.

hooked kids have a nice bump, but the fact remains that most kids get in aren't an athlete or legacy or first gen.

this. google "compelling" and "narrative" here.
The two most important words in an AO review. And your kid has to NAIL it. If you don't know how, get reading.

my unhooked kids got into HYP by building a compelling narrative. I'm assuming your extremely smart kid didn't sit home every summer. what's the common thread. lean into that this summer.

then your kid is as compelling as any other.

hooked kids have a nice bump, but the fact remains that most kids get in aren't an athlete or legacy or first gen.

Anonymous wrote:So if all the kids with hooks like legacy, athletics, first gen, national awards and pro level art go to HYPS, what is the best schools for normal, extremely smart, hardworking kids with normal ec's? I think I'd like my dc to be surrounded by kids that fall into the latter group.

School of hard knocks, this is one area of kids I feel sorry for. The whole academic arena is perverted by elitism. But wait what is elitism, well it isn't academic elitism.

I went to a school often referred to as the "Poor Boys MIT". Often billed as "Best education per dollar spent"(it really was that cheap.) They have the best return on investment; kids make much more than their parents. I make ten times what my parents make (they were that poor). I can't recommend. Many schools like this are what are considered "Workhorse" schools. They let anyone in and have high attrition rates (unlike what you would expect from an elite academic university), kids there actually work at academics. The thing is you end up with no brand at the end of the tunnel. The good news is a smart hard-working kid will be just fine with or without it. I recommend skip it. If the kids smart, he probably took AP classes and what not. Won't need it. Truth be known American high school education can be pretty good especially compared to the IIT folks over in India, don't even have a computer until graduate school.

Anonymous wrote:are we calling full pay a hook? does "without hooks" mean you need financial aid?

This is DCUM. Any characteristic that OP’s kid doesn’t have is a hook.

That is the definition.

A top 50 that is a good fit. If you are full pay, probably the most prestigious schools that would be more likely to accept a strong academic/test score kids that is not remarkable otherwise:
UChicago, but everyone is onto this now and applied there ED from the DC privates if they are not hooked elsewhere
WashU
Emory
Grinnell
not CMC or Pomona, but Pitzer, Scripps, and maybe Harvey Mudd if you have high math/science achievement student
MAYBE Cornell, but one of the easier programs


Schools with strong name recognition would be likely ED
Bates/Colby
BC/BU/NYU
Macalester/Carleton
Colgate/Hamilton

Anonymous wrote:Any school in the top 100 / top 25 SLACs will offer great opportunities for very smart, unhooked kids. ...

As will a ton that USNWR ranks lower.