Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were 35 traffic fatalities in 2022. Here's what happened per the DC government:

12 deaths -- pedestrian error
9 deaths -- speeding driver
4 deaths -- drunk/stoned driver
4 deaths -- driver error
2 deaths -- bicycle error
2 deaths -- medical emergency
1 death -- scooter/motorcycle/atv error
1 death -- hit and run/unknown

This is a crock of bullshit. The DC crash data doesn't provide attribution of fault. This person posting this is interpreting every crash involving a dead pedestrian or cyclist as them being at fault. They are wrong.

This is what's so $!@#*(& up about this "debate". The idiots protesting road diet changes don't understand a goddamn thing about data yet say stuff like this like its fact. Absolutely freaking ridiculous.

This is all nonsense.

The figures come from the police department. Each year they put out a report that includes data on the causes of traffic deaths in the city. You can look them yourself.

For 2022, see page 24 of this report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are not being killed at an alarming rate. The numbers have been very steady over time. If anything most of the counter measures have made things worse by increasing congestion on high congestion roads. It's always been a stalking horse and I for one am glad to now have more names attached to these morons whose ideas are so bad.

If your goal is fewer pedestrian deaths that increasing congestion does not "make things worse" because congestion is not a cause of pedestrian deaths. Congestion slows down drivers and speed is the #1 cause of pedestrians being hit by cars (even a car going the speed limit can kill a pedestrian if they go through a traffic signal or stop sign or turn without signaling or yielding right of way).

Congesting may make other things worse but it does not lead to pedestrian deaths which is the subject of this thread.

Also I will probably regret this but what rate of pedestrian deaths would you consider "alarming." I am guessing you think there is a number of deaths that is okay which is interesting because what you are saying is that there is a human death toll that is "worth" having shorter commutes or being able to drive faster. That's interesting to me. What if every time we built a highway or highway bridge 30-40 people died during construction. Would that be alarming. Or would that just be the cost of making sure people can get from Point A to Point B -- some people are gonna have to die.

If dozens of people were being killed on WMATA trains and buses every year, the system would be shut down. But dozens of people die on DC streets and we are supposed to shrug and moving along while changing absolutely nothing. I fundamentally do not understand this attitude. It’s as if those who are killed in vehicular crashes are some kind of less worthy species whose demise we shouldn’t be much concerned about.

Get a grip. Are you worried about being murdered? Because you're far, far more likely to be murdered.

Actually the fact that society seems to collectively shrug at the traffic deaths and freak out loudly about murders is pretty weird. FWIW they seem to be related since the historical low in traffic deaths was the same year as historical low in murders. Plenty of ppl concerned with both.

There were 202 murders in DC 2022 and only 35 traffic deaths. People were 7.8x more likely to get murdered than die in traffic in DC, so it makes sense that murders get more attention.

2022 was lower - the concern is the sharp increase to 50+ in 2023.

Well, that and the major and minor injuries. "Minor injuries" that involve a vehicle hitting a human being really suck hard for that human being. Like, laid up with bruising and persistent pain for weeks or months. Major ones are life changing - broken bones, lost limbs, constant pain.

None of that is good. There are *hundreds* of major injury crashes and *thousands* of minor injury crashes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are not being killed at an alarming rate. The numbers have been very steady over time. If anything most of the counter measures have made things worse by increasing congestion on high congestion roads. It's always been a stalking horse and I for one am glad to now have more names attached to these morons whose ideas are so bad.

If your goal is fewer pedestrian deaths that increasing congestion does not "make things worse" because congestion is not a cause of pedestrian deaths. Congestion slows down drivers and speed is the #1 cause of pedestrians being hit by cars (even a car going the speed limit can kill a pedestrian if they go through a traffic signal or stop sign or turn without signaling or yielding right of way).

Congesting may make other things worse but it does not lead to pedestrian deaths which is the subject of this thread.

Also I will probably regret this but what rate of pedestrian deaths would you consider "alarming." I am guessing you think there is a number of deaths that is okay which is interesting because what you are saying is that there is a human death toll that is "worth" having shorter commutes or being able to drive faster. That's interesting to me. What if every time we built a highway or highway bridge 30-40 people died during construction. Would that be alarming. Or would that just be the cost of making sure people can get from Point A to Point B -- some people are gonna have to die.

If dozens of people were being killed on WMATA trains and buses every year, the system would be shut down. But dozens of people die on DC streets and we are supposed to shrug and moving along while changing absolutely nothing. I fundamentally do not understand this attitude. It’s as if those who are killed in vehicular crashes are some kind of less worthy species whose demise we shouldn’t be much concerned about.

Get a grip. Are you worried about being murdered? Because you're far, far more likely to be murdered.

Actually the fact that society seems to collectively shrug at the traffic deaths and freak out loudly about murders is pretty weird. FWIW they seem to be related since the historical low in traffic deaths was the same year as historical low in murders. Plenty of ppl concerned with both.

There were 202 murders in DC 2022 and only 35 traffic deaths. People were 7.8x more likely to get murdered than die in traffic in DC, so it makes sense that murders get more attention.

The risk of being murdered in DC is much higher for young black men than pretty much everyone else. Around 90% of all murder victims in DC are male and black and about 10% are under age 35.

Whereas the risk of being hit by a car is more equally distributed across demographics. So for many people in the city (especially the people who are most likely to care about stuff like Vision Zero) their risk of being killed by a car actually is quite a bit higher than their risk of being murdered. Thus it is unsurprising that many white people in the city and lots of middle aged people of all races (on their own behalf and on behalf of minor children) are more concerned about car deaths than murders as it's something that impacts them more directly.

Source fo homicide victim data: https://cjcc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/cjcc/release_content/attachments/DC%20Gun%20Violence%20Problem%20Analysis%20Summary%20Report.pdf

Like most of us on this board, I feel almost no fear of falling victim to random violence. However, I have a lot of fear of being seriously injured or worse by a vehicle on DC streets. I support policies that tackle either or both problems.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were 35 traffic fatalities in 2022. Here's what happened per the DC government:

12 deaths -- pedestrian error
9 deaths -- speeding driver
4 deaths -- drunk/stoned driver
4 deaths -- driver error
2 deaths -- bicycle error
2 deaths -- medical emergency
1 death -- scooter/motorcycle/atv error
1 death -- hit and run/unknown

This is a crock of bullshit. The DC crash data doesn't provide attribution of fault. This person posting this is interpreting every crash involving a dead pedestrian or cyclist as them being at fault. They are wrong.

This is what's so $!@#*(& up about this "debate". The idiots protesting road diet changes don't understand a goddamn thing about data yet say stuff like this like its fact. Absolutely freaking ridiculous.

This is all nonsense.

The figures come from the police department. Each year they put out a report that includes data on the causes of traffic deaths in the city. You can look them yourself.

For 2022, see page 24 of this report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

DP. You get that vision zero includes factors that apply to all traffic deaths right?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are not being killed at an alarming rate. The numbers have been very steady over time. If anything most of the counter measures have made things worse by increasing congestion on high congestion roads. It's always been a stalking horse and I for one am glad to now have more names attached to these morons whose ideas are so bad.

If your goal is fewer pedestrian deaths that increasing congestion does not "make things worse" because congestion is not a cause of pedestrian deaths. Congestion slows down drivers and speed is the #1 cause of pedestrians being hit by cars (even a car going the speed limit can kill a pedestrian if they go through a traffic signal or stop sign or turn without signaling or yielding right of way).

Congesting may make other things worse but it does not lead to pedestrian deaths which is the subject of this thread.

Also I will probably regret this but what rate of pedestrian deaths would you consider "alarming." I am guessing you think there is a number of deaths that is okay which is interesting because what you are saying is that there is a human death toll that is "worth" having shorter commutes or being able to drive faster. That's interesting to me. What if every time we built a highway or highway bridge 30-40 people died during construction. Would that be alarming. Or would that just be the cost of making sure people can get from Point A to Point B -- some people are gonna have to die.

If dozens of people were being killed on WMATA trains and buses every year, the system would be shut down. But dozens of people die on DC streets and we are supposed to shrug and moving along while changing absolutely nothing. I fundamentally do not understand this attitude. It’s as if those who are killed in vehicular crashes are some kind of less worthy species whose demise we shouldn’t be much concerned about.

Get a grip. Are you worried about being murdered? Because you're far, far more likely to be murdered.

Actually the fact that society seems to collectively shrug at the traffic deaths and freak out loudly about murders is pretty weird. FWIW they seem to be related since the historical low in traffic deaths was the same year as historical low in murders. Plenty of ppl concerned with both.

There were 202 murders in DC 2022 and only 35 traffic deaths. People were 7.8x more likely to get murdered than die in traffic in DC, so it makes sense that murders get more attention.

The risk of being murdered in DC is much higher for young black men than pretty much everyone else. Around 90% of all murder victims in DC are male and black and about 10% are under age 35.

Whereas the risk of being hit by a car is more equally distributed across demographics. So for many people in the city (especially the people who are most likely to care about stuff like Vision Zero) their risk of being killed by a car actually is quite a bit higher than their risk of being murdered. Thus it is unsurprising that many white people in the city and lots of middle aged people of all races (on their own behalf and on behalf of minor children) are more concerned about car deaths than murders as it's something that impacts them more directly.

Source fo homicide victim data: https://cjcc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/cjcc/release_content/attachments/DC%20Gun%20Violence%20Problem%20Analysis%20Summary%20Report.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were 35 traffic fatalities in 2022. Here's what happened per the DC government:

12 deaths -- pedestrian error
9 deaths -- speeding driver
4 deaths -- drunk/stoned driver
4 deaths -- driver error
2 deaths -- bicycle error
2 deaths -- medical emergency
1 death -- scooter/motorcycle/atv error
1 death -- hit and run/unknown

This is a crock of bullshit. The DC crash data doesn't provide attribution of fault. This person posting this is interpreting every crash involving a dead pedestrian or cyclist as them being at fault. They are wrong.

This is what's so $!@#*(& up about this "debate". The idiots protesting road diet changes don't understand a goddamn thing about data yet say stuff like this like its fact. Absolutely freaking ridiculous.

This is all nonsense.

The figures come from the police department. Each year they put out a report that includes data on the causes of traffic deaths in the city. You can look them yourself.

For 2022, see page 24 of this report: https://mpdc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/mpdc/publication/attachments/AR_2022_lowres.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are not being killed at an alarming rate. The numbers have been very steady over time. If anything most of the counter measures have made things worse by increasing congestion on high congestion roads. It's always been a stalking horse and I for one am glad to now have more names attached to these morons whose ideas are so bad.

If your goal is fewer pedestrian deaths that increasing congestion does not "make things worse" because congestion is not a cause of pedestrian deaths. Congestion slows down drivers and speed is the #1 cause of pedestrians being hit by cars (even a car going the speed limit can kill a pedestrian if they go through a traffic signal or stop sign or turn without signaling or yielding right of way).

Congesting may make other things worse but it does not lead to pedestrian deaths which is the subject of this thread.

Also I will probably regret this but what rate of pedestrian deaths would you consider "alarming." I am guessing you think there is a number of deaths that is okay which is interesting because what you are saying is that there is a human death toll that is "worth" having shorter commutes or being able to drive faster. That's interesting to me. What if every time we built a highway or highway bridge 30-40 people died during construction. Would that be alarming. Or would that just be the cost of making sure people can get from Point A to Point B -- some people are gonna have to die.

If dozens of people were being killed on WMATA trains and buses every year, the system would be shut down. But dozens of people die on DC streets and we are supposed to shrug and moving along while changing absolutely nothing. I fundamentally do not understand this attitude. It’s as if those who are killed in vehicular crashes are some kind of less worthy species whose demise we shouldn’t be much concerned about.

Get a grip. Are you worried about being murdered? Because you're far, far more likely to be murdered.

Actually the fact that society seems to collectively shrug at the traffic deaths and freak out loudly about murders is pretty weird. FWIW they seem to be related since the historical low in traffic deaths was the same year as historical low in murders. Plenty of ppl concerned with both.

There were 202 murders in DC 2022 and only 35 traffic deaths. People were 7.8x more likely to get murdered than die in traffic in DC, so it makes sense that murders get more attention.

The risk of being murdered in DC is much higher for young black men than pretty much everyone else. Around 90% of all murder victims in DC are male and black and about 10% are under age 35.

Whereas the risk of being hit by a car is more equally distributed across demographics. So for many people in the city (especially the people who are most likely to care about stuff like Vision Zero) their risk of being killed by a car actually is quite a bit higher than their risk of being murdered. Thus it is unsurprising that many white people in the city and lots of middle aged people of all races (on their own behalf and on behalf of minor children) are more concerned about car deaths than murders as it's something that impacts them more directly.

Source fo homicide victim data: https://cjcc.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/cjcc/release_content/attachments/DC%20Gun%20Violence%20Problem%20Analysis%20Summary%20Report.pdf

Sorry that should say that 70% are under age 35 -- not 10%.

It would be great if we have Vision Zero for murder or even just child murder. Maybe if they were white, then people would care?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There were 35 traffic fatalities in 2022. Here's what happened per the DC government:

12 deaths -- pedestrian error
9 deaths -- speeding driver
4 deaths -- drunk/stoned driver
4 deaths -- driver error
2 deaths -- bicycle error
2 deaths -- medical emergency
1 death -- scooter/motorcycle/atv error
1 death -- hit and run/unknown

This is a crock of bullshit. The DC crash data doesn't provide attribution of fault. This person posting this is interpreting every crash involving a dead pedestrian or cyclist as them being at fault. They are wrong.

This is what's so $!@#*(& up about this "debate". The idiots protesting road diet changes don't understand a goddamn thing about data yet say stuff like this like its fact. Absolutely freaking ridiculous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ironically there is not much daylight on the Venn Diagram of the Vision Zero crowd and the DC crime sentencing “reform” crowd. It’s like you can carjack a car and face no punishment but if you run a red light in a car they want you to do hard time.

This is extremely true.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ironically there is not much daylight on the Venn Diagram of the Vision Zero crowd and the DC crime sentencing “reform” crowd. It’s like you can carjack a car and face no punishment but if you run a red light in a car they want you to do hard time.

No, the sentencing reform crowd usually thinks traffic enforcement is racist.

Does co-existing with fictitious characters make life more fun for you?

Not PP, but this disparate impact is the exact reason the Council gave for advising MPD to not enforce fake dealer tags.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are not being killed at an alarming rate. The numbers have been very steady over time. If anything most of the counter measures have made things worse by increasing congestion on high congestion roads. It's always been a stalking horse and I for one am glad to now have more names attached to these morons whose ideas are so bad.

If your goal is fewer pedestrian deaths that increasing congestion does not "make things worse" because congestion is not a cause of pedestrian deaths. Congestion slows down drivers and speed is the #1 cause of pedestrians being hit by cars (even a car going the speed limit can kill a pedestrian if they go through a traffic signal or stop sign or turn without signaling or yielding right of way).

Congesting may make other things worse but it does not lead to pedestrian deaths which is the subject of this thread.

Also I will probably regret this but what rate of pedestrian deaths would you consider "alarming." I am guessing you think there is a number of deaths that is okay which is interesting because what you are saying is that there is a human death toll that is "worth" having shorter commutes or being able to drive faster. That's interesting to me. What if every time we built a highway or highway bridge 30-40 people died during construction. Would that be alarming. Or would that just be the cost of making sure people can get from Point A to Point B -- some people are gonna have to die.

If dozens of people were being killed on WMATA trains and buses every year, the system would be shut down. But dozens of people die on DC streets and we are supposed to shrug and moving along while changing absolutely nothing. I fundamentally do not understand this attitude. It’s as if those who are killed in vehicular crashes are some kind of less worthy species whose demise we shouldn’t be much concerned about.

Get a grip. Are you worried about being murdered? Because you're far, far more likely to be murdered.

Actually the fact that society seems to collectively shrug at the traffic deaths and freak out loudly about murders is pretty weird. FWIW they seem to be related since the historical low in traffic deaths was the same year as historical low in murders. Plenty of ppl concerned with both.

There were 202 murders in DC 2022 and only 35 traffic deaths. People were 7.8x more likely to get murdered than die in traffic in DC, so it makes sense that murders get more attention.

2022 was lower - the concern is the sharp increase to 50+ in 2023.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are not being killed at an alarming rate. The numbers have been very steady over time. If anything most of the counter measures have made things worse by increasing congestion on high congestion roads. It's always been a stalking horse and I for one am glad to now have more names attached to these morons whose ideas are so bad.

If your goal is fewer pedestrian deaths that increasing congestion does not "make things worse" because congestion is not a cause of pedestrian deaths. Congestion slows down drivers and speed is the #1 cause of pedestrians being hit by cars (even a car going the speed limit can kill a pedestrian if they go through a traffic signal or stop sign or turn without signaling or yielding right of way).

Congesting may make other things worse but it does not lead to pedestrian deaths which is the subject of this thread.

Also I will probably regret this but what rate of pedestrian deaths would you consider "alarming." I am guessing you think there is a number of deaths that is okay which is interesting because what you are saying is that there is a human death toll that is "worth" having shorter commutes or being able to drive faster. That's interesting to me. What if every time we built a highway or highway bridge 30-40 people died during construction. Would that be alarming. Or would that just be the cost of making sure people can get from Point A to Point B -- some people are gonna have to die.

If dozens of people were being killed on WMATA trains and buses every year, the system would be shut down. But dozens of people die on DC streets and we are supposed to shrug and moving along while changing absolutely nothing. I fundamentally do not understand this attitude. It’s as if those who are killed in vehicular crashes are some kind of less worthy species whose demise we shouldn’t be much concerned about.

Get a grip. Are you worried about being murdered? Because you're far, far more likely to be murdered.

Actually the fact that society seems to collectively shrug at the traffic deaths and freak out loudly about murders is pretty weird. FWIW they seem to be related since the historical low in traffic deaths was the same year as historical low in murders. Plenty of ppl concerned with both.

There were 202 murders in DC 2022 and only 35 traffic deaths. People were 7.8x more likely to get murdered than die in traffic in DC, so it makes sense that murders get more attention.

Anonymous wrote:There were 35 traffic fatalities in 2022. Here's what happened per the DC government:

12 deaths -- pedestrian error
9 deaths -- speeding driver
4 deaths -- drunk/stoned driver
4 deaths -- driver error
2 deaths -- bicycle error
2 deaths -- medical emergency
1 death -- scooter/motorcycle/atv error
1 death -- hit and run/unknown

Anonymous wrote:There were 35 traffic fatalities in 2022. Here's what happened per the DC government:

12 deaths -- pedestrian error
9 deaths -- speeding driver
4 deaths -- drunk/stoned driver
4 deaths -- driver error
2 deaths -- bicycle error
2 deaths -- medical emergency
1 death -- scooter/motorcycle/atv error
1 death -- hit and run/unknown