Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 08:52     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Woke ideologues have ruined the study of serious literature. They tell us that we need trigger warnings about Shakespeare, Dickens, Whitman and Twain and it's better to read second- and third-rate PC writers instead.

Name "they."
Name "third-rate PC writers."
You will maybe read Toni Morrison and Audre Lorde in a "woke" English department, but the rest of your experience will be with the cannon for undergraduate English training.


Even in my DC’s AP English class the summer reading is Ta-Nehisi Coates, and this is a Catholic school. Not trashing the book, but it isn’t as if they are reading Whitman or Twain either.
Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 07:30     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Because with the high cost of college, parents (and students) are pushing kids into STEM or other majors where there's essentially a guaranteed job on the other end.

I was an English major....in the late 80s when UMCP was $5K a year tuition. Would I be thrilled if either of my kids decided to be an English major? No.
Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 07:29     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:English is no longer the field you or your literary college buddy majored in. It's basically Woke Studies now. Goodbye Shakespeare, hello Ibram X. Kendi. Why pore over dead white guy drivel like Ulysses when you can read The Hate U Give for class like your middle school cousin is doing? This is what super woke left wing SJWs have done to once-great English departments across the country. And it's why serious students don't major in it anymore.


Close, but maybe not quite right. Shakespeare is still offered, but with a “re-imagined” interpretation. Ditto for Joyce and Faulkner and others who were staples of English Literature (including American authors, not just UK authors) for many many decades.

Harold Bloom was not always right, but he was right much more often than he was wrong. In our house, our DC still read books from his literature canon, because those books provide much of the cultural underpinning for the English Language. Shakespeare (and Tyndale) were huge permanent influences on the English language.
Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 07:16     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Talk to middle school and high school teachers. The Covid gap kids are basically illiterate. So the number of English majors will further decline, at least for the next 8 years until we get through this bubble of kids.


+1

I'm a high school English teacher, and have been teaching for 19 years. Early in my career, I still had a sizeable percentage of kids who liked to read, and the attention spans/writing ability of all kids in general was much stronger than what I have to work with today. It is frightening that grade inflation has radically increased even as the literacy of students has plummeted; there is no incentive to work harder, and no understanding among students/parents that there is even a problem with reading comprehension, writing skills, and attention issues.

I can honestly say that the majority of my students simply cannot understand the texts we are required to teach, and I'm not talking about Shakespeare, but contemporary YA novels (Shakespeare is another story, but I won't get into that). At this point, the majority of students rely on summary websites such as SparkNotes, Shmoop, etc to give them detailed summaries of chapters, characters, and themes of every book, short story, article, and poem: even the "smart" kids are doing this instead of actually reading anything at all, and the result is that...almost nobody can actually read a book anymore. It is tragic, and it makes me so sad to recall the time before literacy rates plunged. I recall the Twilight era as the last time I saw a significant number of students actually reading eagerly and independently (or, well, reading at all). To think that I once despaired to see so many copies of that stupid book, with that telltale red apple on the dark cover, in the hallways or on students' desks! At least they COULD read! I suppose that was right before social media became what it is now?

Students and parents are scornful of English majors, English class, English teachers. To students, English class is the place where you pretend to have read a book or poem, having studied the summaries on the "study guide" sites before class. The teacher might grumble about poor writing skiils/literacy, but everyone gets an A or B no matter what, so it doesn't sink in. Grade inflation + decreased respect for teachers + social media era = many A/B+ kids exiting high school years below what was grade level a decade + ago, with no ability to read any book whatsoever, and most tragically, no understanding of their own weaknesses. My friend who teaches English at the university level tells me it is the same in her classes, and that English in college has now become, in part, a sort of remedial program in which professors must attempt to teach kids basic skills they should have gotten in high school.

The kids can't read or write, y'all. And we would once have considered the online resources they rely upon to be "cheating", but are now so common that kids truly cannot read, write, or think on their own at grade level. But also, you can absolutely expect that A or B you want for your child, and the teacher will give it to them because the administrative structure and goals have changed so much in recent years that high grades are given as a matter of course. So can your child read or write at grade level? You'll never know for sure, and neither will they. It is tragic.

As for English majors today, the only students I see aiming for this are: kids who want to go to law school, and kids from independently wealthy families who do enjoy reading and literature and don't care about making money (my favorite is the girl with a trust fund who is planning to double major in English and French literature: she is like a little Victorian aristocrat with her derision for the kids who are talking about future income in relation to majors).

So for now, English majors are over. This is not causing the illiteracy among the current young generation, but was caused in part by the illiteracy we are permitting to flourish in our high schools.






If you're noticing kids can't read or write in your very rich school district now, when did it become bad in the less wealthy districts? Or do you think this is an issue that has always spanned economic groups equally?

One thing that always stands out to me in the talk about kids today is how it was our responsibility collectively to make them into functional adults. Are we so incompetent that we were unable to complete the task? Maybe the current generation will look at our failed ideas and policies and do better.


DP. The Lucy Calkins balanced literacy/whole language crap in lower elementary grades *significantly* increased the number of kids who are unable to read well - or read at all - in many cases. Literacy rates plunged. Go read the Podcast “Sold A Story”. The tide is now starting to turn on that, Thank God.

Virginia now mandates “Science of Reading” for all public schools state-wide, in a bi-partisan law passed by a wide margin a couple of years ago and signed by the Governor. WTOP reported in early July that the new MD State Schools Superintendent is working to place a similar mandate on all Maryland public schools. When other states saw the dramatic huge literacy gains which resulted *state-wide* in Mississippi, yes that Mississippi, from adopting Science of Reading, a national ground-swell began to say all public schools should follow a literacy instruction approach which actually works to teach kids how to read.
Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 07:07     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Academia has made literature an incredibly unappealing thing to study. Take a look at the specialities of your average English Department these days. It's not something you want to spend four years immersed in. No one has done more to destroy language and literature than contemporary academia. It is incredibly stifling, boring, pedantic, hyper-political, and all around not fun. I congratulate every bright liberal arts student who has chosen to not major in English. Well done.


Yes. My MIL is an English professor at an Ivy and she would likely agree with everything you wrote. She hates how hyper-political it has become.


This is a big factor. Many places do not teach great literature because it was written by Dead White Men, or they teach it in “reinterpreted” ways. The silly stuff sucks all the oxygen out of the room…
Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 06:28     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Talk to middle school and high school teachers. The Covid gap kids are basically illiterate. So the number of English majors will further decline, at least for the next 8 years until we get through this bubble of kids.


+1

I'm a high school English teacher, and have been teaching for 19 years. Early in my career, I still had a sizeable percentage of kids who liked to read, and the attention spans/writing ability of all kids in general was much stronger than what I have to work with today. It is frightening that grade inflation has radically increased even as the literacy of students has plummeted; there is no incentive to work harder, and no understanding among students/parents that there is even a problem with reading comprehension, writing skills, and attention issues.

I can honestly say that the majority of my students simply cannot understand the texts we are required to teach, and I'm not talking about Shakespeare, but contemporary YA novels (Shakespeare is another story, but I won't get into that). At this point, the majority of students rely on summary websites such as SparkNotes, Shmoop, etc to give them detailed summaries of chapters, characters, and themes of every book, short story, article, and poem: even the "smart" kids are doing this instead of actually reading anything at all, and the result is that...almost nobody can actually read a book anymore. It is tragic, and it makes me so sad to recall the time before literacy rates plunged. I recall the Twilight era as the last time I saw a significant number of students actually reading eagerly and independently (or, well, reading at all). To think that I once despaired to see so many copies of that stupid book, with that telltale red apple on the dark cover, in the hallways or on students' desks! At least they COULD read! I suppose that was right before social media became what it is now?

Students and parents are scornful of English majors, English class, English teachers. To students, English class is the place where you pretend to have read a book or poem, having studied the summaries on the "study guide" sites before class. The teacher might grumble about poor writing skiils/literacy, but everyone gets an A or B no matter what, so it doesn't sink in. Grade inflation + decreased respect for teachers + social media era = many A/B+ kids exiting high school years below what was grade level a decade + ago, with no ability to read any book whatsoever, and most tragically, no understanding of their own weaknesses. My friend who teaches English at the university level tells me it is the same in her classes, and that English in college has now become, in part, a sort of remedial program in which professors must attempt to teach kids basic skills they should have gotten in high school.

The kids can't read or write, y'all. And we would once have considered the online resources they rely upon to be "cheating", but are now so common that kids truly cannot read, write, or think on their own at grade level. But also, you can absolutely expect that A or B you want for your child, and the teacher will give it to them because the administrative structure and goals have changed so much in recent years that high grades are given as a matter of course. So can your child read or write at grade level? You'll never know for sure, and neither will they. It is tragic.

As for English majors today, the only students I see aiming for this are: kids who want to go to law school, and kids from independently wealthy families who do enjoy reading and literature and don't care about making money (my favorite is the girl with a trust fund who is planning to double major in English and French literature: she is like a little Victorian aristocrat with her derision for the kids who are talking about future income in relation to majors).

So for now, English majors are over. This is not causing the illiteracy among the current young generation, but was caused in part by the illiteracy we are permitting to flourish in our high schools.






If you're noticing kids can't read or write in your very rich school district now, when did it become bad in the less wealthy districts? Or do you think this is an issue that has always spanned economic groups equally?

One thing that always stands out to me in the talk about kids today is how it was our responsibility collectively to make them into functional adults. Are we so incompetent that we were unable to complete the task? Maybe the current generation will look at our failed ideas and policies and do better.
Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 06:04     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:Talk to middle school and high school teachers. The Covid gap kids are basically illiterate. So the number of English majors will further decline, at least for the next 8 years until we get through this bubble of kids.


+1

I'm a high school English teacher, and have been teaching for 19 years. Early in my career, I still had a sizeable percentage of kids who liked to read, and the attention spans/writing ability of all kids in general was much stronger than what I have to work with today. It is frightening that grade inflation has radically increased even as the literacy of students has plummeted; there is no incentive to work harder, and no understanding among students/parents that there is even a problem with reading comprehension, writing skills, and attention issues.

I can honestly say that the majority of my students simply cannot understand the texts we are required to teach, and I'm not talking about Shakespeare, but contemporary YA novels (Shakespeare is another story, but I won't get into that). At this point, the majority of students rely on summary websites such as SparkNotes, Shmoop, etc to give them detailed summaries of chapters, characters, and themes of every book, short story, article, and poem: even the "smart" kids are doing this instead of actually reading anything at all, and the result is that...almost nobody can actually read a book anymore. It is tragic, and it makes me so sad to recall the time before literacy rates plunged. I recall the Twilight era as the last time I saw a significant number of students actually reading eagerly and independently (or, well, reading at all). To think that I once despaired to see so many copies of that stupid book, with that telltale red apple on the dark cover, in the hallways or on students' desks! At least they COULD read! I suppose that was right before social media became what it is now?

Students and parents are scornful of English majors, English class, English teachers. To students, English class is the place where you pretend to have read a book or poem, having studied the summaries on the "study guide" sites before class. The teacher might grumble about poor writing skiils/literacy, but everyone gets an A or B no matter what, so it doesn't sink in. Grade inflation + decreased respect for teachers + social media era = many A/B+ kids exiting high school years below what was grade level a decade + ago, with no ability to read any book whatsoever, and most tragically, no understanding of their own weaknesses. My friend who teaches English at the university level tells me it is the same in her classes, and that English in college has now become, in part, a sort of remedial program in which professors must attempt to teach kids basic skills they should have gotten in high school.

The kids can't read or write, y'all. And we would once have considered the online resources they rely upon to be "cheating", but are now so common that kids truly cannot read, write, or think on their own at grade level. But also, you can absolutely expect that A or B you want for your child, and the teacher will give it to them because the administrative structure and goals have changed so much in recent years that high grades are given as a matter of course. So can your child read or write at grade level? You'll never know for sure, and neither will they. It is tragic.

As for English majors today, the only students I see aiming for this are: kids who want to go to law school, and kids from independently wealthy families who do enjoy reading and literature and don't care about making money (my favorite is the girl with a trust fund who is planning to double major in English and French literature: she is like a little Victorian aristocrat with her derision for the kids who are talking about future income in relation to majors).

So for now, English majors are over. This is not causing the illiteracy among the current young generation, but was caused in part by the illiteracy we are permitting to flourish in our high schools.




Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 06:03     Subject: The declining number of English majors
This is a great New Yorker piece that explored this issue.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/06/the-end-of-the-english-major
Anonymous
Post 07/26/2024 04:40     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:Talk to middle school and high school teachers. The Covid gap kids are basically illiterate. So the number of English majors will further decline, at least for the next 8 years until we get through this bubble of kids.
They're also basically innumerate, yet math has been booming
Anonymous
Post 07/25/2024 22:44     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Maybe people have realized how hard it is to get a job with that degree.


The idea that college is trade school seems to be one of the most immutable of the lower-middle class misconceptions.



Most of the kids are not trust fund kids, so they need jobs.


If they really needed jobs, they'd go into a trade, get an ASN/Rad Tech/Construction Management associates, or do the many other options you have before getting a degree. They are lazy and want to delay working for four years by partying and BSing through school.


Average salary is higher with college degree for long term and also more opportunities.
College + job is the best.
By the way, yes most kids really need jobs.
What are you trying to say??

The kids of this generation are much dumber than previous ones and shouldn't be getting degrees. Colleges are lowering their standards to get them to pass (B is the new C!) and many of these students should be working before ever even thinking of going into a collegiate institution. Many have no respect for education, but somehow also want 4.0s and some even want to go to grad schools with a terrible consumerist mindset about University. If your objective is money, there's so many jobs out there that do not require a degree that you can use as a launchpad to a successful career.


What are these jobs?

Most of the associates you can get in non-liberal arts fields are directly practical and qualify you for a job. I didn’t take this path but of the people I know in them include construction/construction project managers, Policy planners, forestry and conservation, nursing, radiation tech, dentist assistant, etc. I’m sure there’s others, but these are the type of careers my friends growing up went into with community college.


Those are all jobs that cap at a MC lifestyle for the most part (nurses can make more). These aren’t really leading to much of a career…I mean what is the career progression of a dentist assistant?

Most people live a middle or low class lifestyle? It’d be beneficial for a significant amount of students to gtfo and start at an associates and start a living. I’m not talking about your students at UVA or UNC, but students at lower tier institutions where the ROI really isn’t worth it.

Also what’s with career progression? For a long time, people retired the same job that they started with. Not everyone needs to be a project manager or director of [x].

DP, but this is very classest. Only the most educated and talented (read Wealthiest students) have access to college now?

I don't know how it's classism to suggest that more people go into those jobs which are pretty stable, middle class jobs.
Anonymous
Post 07/25/2024 22:32     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Maybe people have realized how hard it is to get a job with that degree.


The idea that college is trade school seems to be one of the most immutable of the lower-middle class misconceptions.



Most of the kids are not trust fund kids, so they need jobs.


If they really needed jobs, they'd go into a trade, get an ASN/Rad Tech/Construction Management associates, or do the many other options you have before getting a degree. They are lazy and want to delay working for four years by partying and BSing through school.


Average salary is higher with college degree for long term and also more opportunities.
College + job is the best.
By the way, yes most kids really need jobs.
What are you trying to say??

The kids of this generation are much dumber than previous ones and shouldn't be getting degrees. Colleges are lowering their standards to get them to pass (B is the new C!) and many of these students should be working before ever even thinking of going into a collegiate institution. Many have no respect for education, but somehow also want 4.0s and some even want to go to grad schools with a terrible consumerist mindset about University. If your objective is money, there's so many jobs out there that do not require a degree that you can use as a launchpad to a successful career.


What are these jobs?

Most of the associates you can get in non-liberal arts fields are directly practical and qualify you for a job. I didn’t take this path but of the people I know in them include construction/construction project managers, Policy planners, forestry and conservation, nursing, radiation tech, dentist assistant, etc. I’m sure there’s others, but these are the type of careers my friends growing up went into with community college.


Those are all jobs that cap at a MC lifestyle for the most part (nurses can make more). These aren’t really leading to much of a career…I mean what is the career progression of a dentist assistant?

Most people live a middle or low class lifestyle? It’d be beneficial for a significant amount of students to gtfo and start at an associates and start a living. I’m not talking about your students at UVA or UNC, but students at lower tier institutions where the ROI really isn’t worth it.

Also what’s with career progression? For a long time, people retired the same job that they started with. Not everyone needs to be a project manager or director of [x].

DP, but this is very classest. Only the most educated and talented (read Wealthiest students) have access to college now?
Anonymous
Post 07/25/2024 22:27     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Maybe people have realized how hard it is to get a job with that degree.


The idea that college is trade school seems to be one of the most immutable of the lower-middle class misconceptions.



Most of the kids are not trust fund kids, so they need jobs.


If they really needed jobs, they'd go into a trade, get an ASN/Rad Tech/Construction Management associates, or do the many other options you have before getting a degree. They are lazy and want to delay working for four years by partying and BSing through school.


Average salary is higher with college degree for long term and also more opportunities.
College + job is the best.
By the way, yes most kids really need jobs.
What are you trying to say??

The kids of this generation are much dumber than previous ones and shouldn't be getting degrees. Colleges are lowering their standards to get them to pass (B is the new C!) and many of these students should be working before ever even thinking of going into a collegiate institution. Many have no respect for education, but somehow also want 4.0s and some even want to go to grad schools with a terrible consumerist mindset about University. If your objective is money, there's so many jobs out there that do not require a degree that you can use as a launchpad to a successful career.


What are these jobs?

Most of the associates you can get in non-liberal arts fields are directly practical and qualify you for a job. I didn’t take this path but of the people I know in them include construction/construction project managers, Policy planners, forestry and conservation, nursing, radiation tech, dentist assistant, etc. I’m sure there’s others, but these are the type of careers my friends growing up went into with community college.


Those are all jobs that cap at a MC lifestyle for the most part (nurses can make more). These aren’t really leading to much of a career…I mean what is the career progression of a dentist assistant?

Most people live a middle or low class lifestyle? It’d be beneficial for a significant amount of students to gtfo and start at an associates and start a living. I’m not talking about your students at UVA or UNC, but students at lower tier institutions where the ROI really isn’t worth it.

Also what’s with career progression? For a long time, people retired the same job that they started with. Not everyone needs to be a project manager or director of [x].
Anonymous
Post 07/25/2024 22:10     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Maybe people have realized how hard it is to get a job with that degree.


The idea that college is trade school seems to be one of the most immutable of the lower-middle class misconceptions.



Most of the kids are not trust fund kids, so they need jobs.


If they really needed jobs, they'd go into a trade, get an ASN/Rad Tech/Construction Management associates, or do the many other options you have before getting a degree. They are lazy and want to delay working for four years by partying and BSing through school.


Average salary is higher with college degree for long term and also more opportunities.
College + job is the best.
By the way, yes most kids really need jobs.
What are you trying to say??

The kids of this generation are much dumber than previous ones and shouldn't be getting degrees. Colleges are lowering their standards to get them to pass (B is the new C!) and many of these students should be working before ever even thinking of going into a collegiate institution. Many have no respect for education, but somehow also want 4.0s and some even want to go to grad schools with a terrible consumerist mindset about University. If your objective is money, there's so many jobs out there that do not require a degree that you can use as a launchpad to a successful career.


What are these jobs?

Most of the associates you can get in non-liberal arts fields are directly practical and qualify you for a job. I didn’t take this path but of the people I know in them include construction/construction project managers, Policy planners, forestry and conservation, nursing, radiation tech, dentist assistant, etc. I’m sure there’s others, but these are the type of careers my friends growing up went into with community college.


Those are all jobs that cap at a MC lifestyle for the most part (nurses can make more). These aren’t really leading to much of a career…I mean what is the career progression of a dentist assistant?
Anonymous
Post 07/25/2024 21:50     Subject: The declining number of English majors
If you want to go to law school, an English degree is still a good idea, IMO. A lot of analysis, reading, writing, researching. That is what I did with my English lit degree, but that was many years ago. I think it would still apply. Not all schools are "woke lit" schools. If you go to a Jesuit, Catholic, or Christian university, or participate in a Great Books/ Classics program, you will avoid a lot of that.
Anonymous
Post 07/25/2024 21:04     Subject: The declining number of English majors
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Maybe people have realized how hard it is to get a job with that degree.


The idea that college is trade school seems to be one of the most immutable of the lower-middle class misconceptions.



Most of the kids are not trust fund kids, so they need jobs.


If they really needed jobs, they'd go into a trade, get an ASN/Rad Tech/Construction Management associates, or do the many other options you have before getting a degree. They are lazy and want to delay working for four years by partying and BSing through school.


Average salary is higher with college degree for long term and also more opportunities.
College + job is the best.
By the way, yes most kids really need jobs.
What are you trying to say??

The kids of this generation are much dumber than previous ones and shouldn't be getting degrees. Colleges are lowering their standards to get them to pass (B is the new C!) and many of these students should be working before ever even thinking of going into a collegiate institution. Many have no respect for education, but somehow also want 4.0s and some even want to go to grad schools with a terrible consumerist mindset about University. If your objective is money, there's so many jobs out there that do not require a degree that you can use as a launchpad to a successful career.


What are these jobs?

Most of the associates you can get in non-liberal arts fields are directly practical and qualify you for a job. I didn’t take this path but of the people I know in them include construction/construction project managers, Policy planners, forestry and conservation, nursing, radiation tech, dentist assistant, etc. I’m sure there’s others, but these are the type of careers my friends growing up went into with community college.