Anonymous
Post 07/03/2024 11:42     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
My mom died in February at 89 and with a slew of upcoming medical appointments scheduled. She initiated all of these follow up appointments and insisted that every symptom of her diagnosed heart failure be treated or at least discussed; fatigue, shortness of breath, lack of appetite, increased swelling in legs and face, decreased mobility, urinary incontinence.

She told her geriatrician that she was resting up and recuperating to be strong enough to have a heart repair surgery - something she refused a decade prior due to the (her words) extraordinary long recovery period and the required extended bed rest.

She also used a wheelchair and needed me or another sibling to accompany her. My mom never once asked what stage she was in, nor did she want to hear about hospice or palliative care. Her doctors allowed her to live in this complete denial, yet it was nearly impossible to get her out for these appointments. I ended up quitting my job to better manage her care - and around this time she couldn’t live alone so had to hire round the clock care.
Anonymous
Post 07/02/2024 23:33     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
OP here. This post has been immensely helpful. It’s hard to know when to stop making the next appointment with a specialist because of labs that show a number that is too high/too low and they want to figure out the root cause. At the same time, the same doctor shrugs his shoulders when Dad can’t sleep at night and won’t give him ambien because he’s a fall risk. He’s not wrong about any of this. But it is confusing to me why some things elicit big reactions that require a specialist (ie a number that you can clearly see on a blood report) and other things are dismissed (ie feelings of discomfort, lack of sleep, anxiety). The “squishy” things seem harder to address. But for an older person (Dad is 92), sleep and anxiety seem like a good place to focus - for his comfort and quality of life. Another visit to the GI? Another visit to the urologist? Why?

At 62, yes absolutely. 92? What good is another set of “follow-up tests” from the urologist if the man is exhausted from not sleeping.
Anonymous
Post 07/01/2024 19:32     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Nurses and doctors see a lot of old people getting life-prolonging therapy that is not offering them quality of life. Families making decisions that they disagree with, etc, or people in under staffed nursing homes. So I think their default is to be conservative with an elderly patient, especially one with a progressive disease like Parkinson’s, Because they’ve seen a lot of older people living lives that don’t seem to them as worth living.

My mid-80’s dad has atypical Parkinson’s, and I really had to step in to get various issues treated seriously by doctors and nurses— Issues that I think they would’ve seen as urgent if he was a 45-year-old man.

The fact of the matter is, my father probably only has a few years of life left. But every single one of those days is very important to him. I think doctors and nurses look at him and see an old guy who’s very debilitated and doomed. But he loves his life and wants it to last long as possible. He can’t really advocate for himself, though. Certainly his primary care doctor was not equipped to take care of an extremely old person, and yet he has treated my dad for so many years that my dad is loyal to him, even though the doctor is not competent in geriatrics my view. The whole thing is very sad.



One of my neighbors just got back from visiting her 80+ father who was suffering from dementia and had just undergone open heart surgery. The families choice but I’m not sure why they made it.

His much younger 2nd wife will be the one taking care of him I suppose. So it won’t be the burden if the kids. And the surgeons, hospitals nursing home get the medicare money I guess. But such a waste of resources.

For anyone who’s seen dementia and dementia end of life up close though going from a quick and sudden heart attack would be my choice any day.


Second this that dementia is really such a cruel disease and seeing loved ones suffer through dementia/Alzheimer’s is so tough. My grandmother suffered for 10 years with Alzheimer’s and to not recognize anyone, to lose the ability to walk, to talk, to swallow, to lose your sense of reality and have hallucinations is really torture. I just don’t understand how there isn’t more of a movement toward medical aid in dying. My uncle is now going through the same thing and so is my mother. I would rather they have a sudden heart attacks any day.

My cousins, my siblings and I are all United in that no extra medical care be provided to prolong their lives. It would be such a waste of resources, most likely cause more pain and suffering, and neither my mother or uncle wanted to live like this.


“Medical aid in dying” = putting other people out of the sick person’s misery.


Have you seem someone in later stages of dementia? Spent extended time with them as they slowly deteriorate? I love my kids and husband so absolutely no way would I ever want them to have to suffer through seeing me in that state. I would never want to be in that state either and have told my loved ones I will chose to end my life first if I am able to do so.

The whole point of this post was that doctors are ill equipped for elderly. I think some doctors see how devastating dementia/Alzheimers is and are trying to do no harm while treating patients. They realize the best thing is to keep them comfortable and pain free. Others just see they can make money if they continue to treat every patient with every possible option. And perhaps they think they are doing their job. If you find one doctor is too conservative there are plenty of others who will take your loved one's money.



I could have written this. Have been through it to the very last stage of complete and utter torture for the elder and the loved ones.
Anonymous
Post 07/01/2024 16:26     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Nurses and doctors see a lot of old people getting life-prolonging therapy that is not offering them quality of life. Families making decisions that they disagree with, etc, or people in under staffed nursing homes. So I think their default is to be conservative with an elderly patient, especially one with a progressive disease like Parkinson’s, Because they’ve seen a lot of older people living lives that don’t seem to them as worth living.

My mid-80’s dad has atypical Parkinson’s, and I really had to step in to get various issues treated seriously by doctors and nurses— Issues that I think they would’ve seen as urgent if he was a 45-year-old man.

The fact of the matter is, my father probably only has a few years of life left. But every single one of those days is very important to him. I think doctors and nurses look at him and see an old guy who’s very debilitated and doomed. But he loves his life and wants it to last long as possible. He can’t really advocate for himself, though. Certainly his primary care doctor was not equipped to take care of an extremely old person, and yet he has treated my dad for so many years that my dad is loyal to him, even though the doctor is not competent in geriatrics my view. The whole thing is very sad.



One of my neighbors just got back from visiting her 80+ father who was suffering from dementia and had just undergone open heart surgery. The families choice but I’m not sure why they made it.

His much younger 2nd wife will be the one taking care of him I suppose. So it won’t be the burden if the kids. And the surgeons, hospitals nursing home get the medicare money I guess. But such a waste of resources.

For anyone who’s seen dementia and dementia end of life up close though going from a quick and sudden heart attack would be my choice any day.


Second this that dementia is really such a cruel disease and seeing loved ones suffer through dementia/Alzheimer’s is so tough. My grandmother suffered for 10 years with Alzheimer’s and to not recognize anyone, to lose the ability to walk, to talk, to swallow, to lose your sense of reality and have hallucinations is really torture. I just don’t understand how there isn’t more of a movement toward medical aid in dying. My uncle is now going through the same thing and so is my mother. I would rather they have a sudden heart attacks any day.

My cousins, my siblings and I are all United in that no extra medical care be provided to prolong their lives. It would be such a waste of resources, most likely cause more pain and suffering, and neither my mother or uncle wanted to live like this.


“Medical aid in dying” = putting other people out of the sick person’s misery.


Have you seem someone in later stages of dementia? Spent extended time with them as they slowly deteriorate? I love my kids and husband so absolutely no way would I ever want them to have to suffer through seeing me in that state. I would never want to be in that state either and have told my loved ones I will chose to end my life first if I am able to do so.

The whole point of this post was that doctors are ill equipped for elderly. I think some doctors see how devastating dementia/Alzheimers is and are trying to do no harm while treating patients. They realize the best thing is to keep them comfortable and pain free. Others just see they can make money if they continue to treat every patient with every possible option. And perhaps they think they are doing their job. If you find one doctor is too conservative there are plenty of others who will take your loved one's money.


I try to avoid personalizing, but since you asked: Yes; I have seen plenty, almost certainly more than you, and my experience informs my belief that (1) it is never appropriate to put a human person down like a dog; and (2) “mercy killing” seems in most cases to be undertaken to relieve the suffering of third parties, something your post seems not to contest.
Anonymous
Post 07/01/2024 15:56     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Nurses and doctors see a lot of old people getting life-prolonging therapy that is not offering them quality of life. Families making decisions that they disagree with, etc, or people in under staffed nursing homes. So I think their default is to be conservative with an elderly patient, especially one with a progressive disease like Parkinson’s, Because they’ve seen a lot of older people living lives that don’t seem to them as worth living.

My mid-80’s dad has atypical Parkinson’s, and I really had to step in to get various issues treated seriously by doctors and nurses— Issues that I think they would’ve seen as urgent if he was a 45-year-old man.

The fact of the matter is, my father probably only has a few years of life left. But every single one of those days is very important to him. I think doctors and nurses look at him and see an old guy who’s very debilitated and doomed. But he loves his life and wants it to last long as possible. He can’t really advocate for himself, though. Certainly his primary care doctor was not equipped to take care of an extremely old person, and yet he has treated my dad for so many years that my dad is loyal to him, even though the doctor is not competent in geriatrics my view. The whole thing is very sad.



One of my neighbors just got back from visiting her 80+ father who was suffering from dementia and had just undergone open heart surgery. The families choice but I’m not sure why they made it.

His much younger 2nd wife will be the one taking care of him I suppose. So it won’t be the burden if the kids. And the surgeons, hospitals nursing home get the medicare money I guess. But such a waste of resources.

For anyone who’s seen dementia and dementia end of life up close though going from a quick and sudden heart attack would be my choice any day.


Second this that dementia is really such a cruel disease and seeing loved ones suffer through dementia/Alzheimer’s is so tough. My grandmother suffered for 10 years with Alzheimer’s and to not recognize anyone, to lose the ability to walk, to talk, to swallow, to lose your sense of reality and have hallucinations is really torture. I just don’t understand how there isn’t more of a movement toward medical aid in dying. My uncle is now going through the same thing and so is my mother. I would rather they have a sudden heart attacks any day.

My cousins, my siblings and I are all United in that no extra medical care be provided to prolong their lives. It would be such a waste of resources, most likely cause more pain and suffering, and neither my mother or uncle wanted to live like this.


“Medical aid in dying” = putting other people out of the sick person’s misery.


Have you seem someone in later stages of dementia? Spent extended time with them as they slowly deteriorate? I love my kids and husband so absolutely no way would I ever want them to have to suffer through seeing me in that state. I would never want to be in that state either and have told my loved ones I will chose to end my life first if I am able to do so.

The whole point of this post was that doctors are ill equipped for elderly. I think some doctors see how devastating dementia/Alzheimers is and are trying to do no harm while treating patients. They realize the best thing is to keep them comfortable and pain free. Others just see they can make money if they continue to treat every patient with every possible option. And perhaps they think they are doing their job. If you find one doctor is too conservative there are plenty of others who will take your loved one's money.
Anonymous
Post 07/01/2024 15:42     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Nurses and doctors see a lot of old people getting life-prolonging therapy that is not offering them quality of life. Families making decisions that they disagree with, etc, or people in under staffed nursing homes. So I think their default is to be conservative with an elderly patient, especially one with a progressive disease like Parkinson’s, Because they’ve seen a lot of older people living lives that don’t seem to them as worth living.

My mid-80’s dad has atypical Parkinson’s, and I really had to step in to get various issues treated seriously by doctors and nurses— Issues that I think they would’ve seen as urgent if he was a 45-year-old man.

The fact of the matter is, my father probably only has a few years of life left. But every single one of those days is very important to him. I think doctors and nurses look at him and see an old guy who’s very debilitated and doomed. But he loves his life and wants it to last long as possible. He can’t really advocate for himself, though. Certainly his primary care doctor was not equipped to take care of an extremely old person, and yet he has treated my dad for so many years that my dad is loyal to him, even though the doctor is not competent in geriatrics my view. The whole thing is very sad.



One of my neighbors just got back from visiting her 80+ father who was suffering from dementia and had just undergone open heart surgery. The families choice but I’m not sure why they made it.

His much younger 2nd wife will be the one taking care of him I suppose. So it won’t be the burden if the kids. And the surgeons, hospitals nursing home get the medicare money I guess. But such a waste of resources.

For anyone who’s seen dementia and dementia end of life up close though going from a quick and sudden heart attack would be my choice any day.


Second this that dementia is really such a cruel disease and seeing loved ones suffer through dementia/Alzheimer’s is so tough. My grandmother suffered for 10 years with Alzheimer’s and to not recognize anyone, to lose the ability to walk, to talk, to swallow, to lose your sense of reality and have hallucinations is really torture. I just don’t understand how there isn’t more of a movement toward medical aid in dying. My uncle is now going through the same thing and so is my mother. I would rather they have a sudden heart attacks any day.

My cousins, my siblings and I are all United in that no extra medical care be provided to prolong their lives. It would be such a waste of resources, most likely cause more pain and suffering, and neither my mother or uncle wanted to live like this.


“Medical aid in dying” = putting other people out of the sick person’s misery.
Anonymous
Post 07/01/2024 14:48     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I noticed that as my father aged, medical staff was more often disregarding his symptoms or input. I was his advocate, but it depressed me to think of all the seniors who don't have someone looking out for them or speaking up for their needs.


Perhaps because there comes a point in a persons life that there isn’t really a benefit to treating something. Or doing the most aggressive treatment.


But it's not for the doctor to decide that. If the patient has a will to live and is participating in their care, they should be treated as any other patient.


Don't always agree here. A person with advanced age who develops cancer cannot always do aggressive chemo, for instance.


Dealing with this now (and OP/PP on another thread): MIL received a diagnosis of Alzheimer’s at a neurologist appointment but FIL interceded and told the doctor NOT to tell the diagnosis to his wife who claims “she’s fine.” So now we are keeping the diagnosis a secret from the patient and pretending nothing’s wrong. I truly don’t know what is next and if the doctors can manage NOT to disclose this diagnosis to MIL.
Anonymous
Post 07/01/2024 13:40     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Nurses and doctors see a lot of old people getting life-prolonging therapy that is not offering them quality of life. Families making decisions that they disagree with, etc, or people in under staffed nursing homes. So I think their default is to be conservative with an elderly patient, especially one with a progressive disease like Parkinson’s, Because they’ve seen a lot of older people living lives that don’t seem to them as worth living.

My mid-80’s dad has atypical Parkinson’s, and I really had to step in to get various issues treated seriously by doctors and nurses— Issues that I think they would’ve seen as urgent if he was a 45-year-old man.

The fact of the matter is, my father probably only has a few years of life left. But every single one of those days is very important to him. I think doctors and nurses look at him and see an old guy who’s very debilitated and doomed. But he loves his life and wants it to last long as possible. He can’t really advocate for himself, though. Certainly his primary care doctor was not equipped to take care of an extremely old person, and yet he has treated my dad for so many years that my dad is loyal to him, even though the doctor is not competent in geriatrics my view. The whole thing is very sad.



One of my neighbors just got back from visiting her 80+ father who was suffering from dementia and had just undergone open heart surgery. The families choice but I’m not sure why they made it.

His much younger 2nd wife will be the one taking care of him I suppose. So it won’t be the burden if the kids. And the surgeons, hospitals nursing home get the medicare money I guess. But such a waste of resources.

For anyone who’s seen dementia and dementia end of life up close though going from a quick and sudden heart attack would be my choice any day.


Second this that dementia is really such a cruel disease and seeing loved ones suffer through dementia/Alzheimer’s is so tough. My grandmother suffered for 10 years with Alzheimer’s and to not recognize anyone, to lose the ability to walk, to talk, to swallow, to lose your sense of reality and have hallucinations is really torture. I just don’t understand how there isn’t more of a movement toward medical aid in dying. My uncle is now going through the same thing and so is my mother. I would rather they have a sudden heart attacks any day.

My cousins, my siblings and I are all United in that no extra medical care be provided to prolong their lives. It would be such a waste of resources, most likely cause more pain and suffering, and neither my mother or uncle wanted to live like this.
Anonymous
Post 06/30/2024 17:50     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
Anonymous wrote:Nurses and doctors see a lot of old people getting life-prolonging therapy that is not offering them quality of life. Families making decisions that they disagree with, etc, or people in under staffed nursing homes. So I think their default is to be conservative with an elderly patient, especially one with a progressive disease like Parkinson’s, Because they’ve seen a lot of older people living lives that don’t seem to them as worth living.

My mid-80’s dad has atypical Parkinson’s, and I really had to step in to get various issues treated seriously by doctors and nurses— Issues that I think they would’ve seen as urgent if he was a 45-year-old man.

The fact of the matter is, my father probably only has a few years of life left. But every single one of those days is very important to him. I think doctors and nurses look at him and see an old guy who’s very debilitated and doomed. But he loves his life and wants it to last long as possible. He can’t really advocate for himself, though. Certainly his primary care doctor was not equipped to take care of an extremely old person, and yet he has treated my dad for so many years that my dad is loyal to him, even though the doctor is not competent in geriatrics my view. The whole thing is very sad.



One of my neighbors just got back from visiting her 80+ father who was suffering from dementia and had just undergone open heart surgery. The families choice but I’m not sure why they made it.

His much younger 2nd wife will be the one taking care of him I suppose. So it won’t be the burden if the kids. And the surgeons, hospitals nursing home get the medicare money I guess. But such a waste of resources.

For anyone who’s seen dementia and dementia end of life up close though going from a quick and sudden heart attack would be my choice any day.
Anonymous
Post 06/27/2024 15:55     Subject: Doctors just I’ll equipped for elderly!
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:With Respect, it’s not *me* wanting to prolong his life. *he* Wants to prolong his life.

If he may suffer in the future, he is not suffering now, and he wants to have as many days as he can in his one life he will ever have. He wants aggressive treatment.

I think the attitude you express is why it has been so hard for him to get decent therapy. Last year it became hard for him to swallow. He wanted a feeding tube. I think doctors would say “what’s the point” And they see people on feeding tubes who they think should not be, people with dementia. But he has spent the last year living a very good life with my mother, on this feeding tube at home.



DP. You father is lucky to have loving family members who are supporting him. I hope he continues to stay comfortable.


Not enough attention is paid to family caregivers. They really should have a say in the treatment. Most times the family member who is the caretaker is not at all lucky. It is the family members who are not the day to day caretakers who want heroic measures and every single last treatment to prolong life when someone else has to sacrifice.