Anonymous
Post 04/24/2024 21:41     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.


What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.


I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.


+1000

With the generous sick leave at the government, no one should be at a zero balance absent very serious circumstances. And yet there are many employees who don’t have those circumstances and are constantly at a leave balance of zero—and it is virtually always the low performers. Excuse after excuse after excuse— for why they can’t make it to work and for why their work isn’t done when they do.

The people getting all riled up about this clearly don’t manage people. Or not a lot of them anyway.


I’m a fed, get good performance reviews and find it hard to keep my sick leave above zero. A friend who is a manager and has been a fed over 15 years does as well. I suspect it’s because we both have children that have needed a lot of appointments. We both had our children before the federal government offered any paid leave (my husband in private industry had 6 weeks paternity leave) and that (plus kids getting sick in daycare) ran our balances down. My younger daughter has “graduated” from speech therapy but, for a few years she had an hour of speech therapy and an hour of occupational therapy a week. Luckily my husband’s job is flexible and he covers a lot of her appointments but the weeks I have to take her to these that’s all the sick leave I earn (ie 4 hrs every two weeks). In between having kids and my daughter’s appointments, a few years ago I got a concussion and had to take a full week of leave for that. The weeks I cover her appointments I try to work extra hours another day during the week, but that can he hard. My manager friend has two SN children so that’s an even bigger demand.

I do think having a whole separate full-time job is a problem though. For instance, they could probably work extra hours to cover their sick leave if it were not for the extra job.


I don’t buy the SN garbage. I had a women work for me with two SN kids, she picked my company as one mile her house and I let her sneak out to do appointments and come back later if needed to finish up. Her husband was a teacher who also worked within one mile of home. They chose careers and work locations to deal with their SN kids.


You are really gross.

Not pp, but I too had a school age SN kid. My job was 12 miles from home. Spouse's job 8 miles in other direction. PT at Georgetown hospital. OT in Kensington. SLP at our home, thank goodness. Your little 1 mile house rule and "sneaking" out ...no words. Many of us chose our careers prior to having a kid with, checks notes, unplanned special needs. We need those careers to have health ins. and pay for all the uncovered therapy costs, and our normal bills. We also do not work at the same office--we were to have 2 homes, each near and office? Oh please. Walk a mile in someone's shoes before you write your next edict.


The lower paid one should quit problem solved.

I had crazy lady calling out cause her mom dying sticking work with staff whose mom was dying but he never brought it up.

My approach if spouse or kid sick 😷 I DGAF as all my staff and bosses DGAF about me. It’s work not playtime


Yeah so crazy to take off work when your mom is dying!
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2024 21:36     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:We are feds. The fed gov’s sick leave is so generous that if you only take it for legit reasons you accrue a lot of it (there are obvious exceptions to this, but they tend to be obvious). It is very common for the problem employees to use their sick leave like annual leave—and they use it as they get it, kinda like the folks who live paycheck to paycheck. The good employees never do this.


i didn't join the federal gov until my 40s. in that time i've had several surgeries, a child, needed to take care of a parent who was dying, and another parent who had cancer. this is the shit sandwich phase of life. i think i have maybe 80 hours of sick leave currently. there is no point hoarding sick leave like it is annual leave. if i have a situation that calls for sick leave, i use it. i also have a short term disability policy and i donate to the leave bank. fingers crossed i'll never have to use either, but if i do, my job will be covered by FMLA. i consistently earn a couple thousand a year in award money on top of excellent reviews so i know my management views me as a good employee. i guess i'm fortunate that they aren't grading me on my leave balance...

but also, anyone that retires with thousands of hours of sick leave is really bad at math, which is not a feature in my line of work.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2024 20:54     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Unless you are a doctor, engineer, or some other critical worker, taking sick leave is really not that big of a deal. Many people think that their jobs are so important until someone drops dead and you realize how easily it is to replace someone. I don't think any manager or employee should take sick leave or poor performance that seriously. So many of these paper pushing jobs mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. I know someone who was so loyal and never used his sick leave. He had HUNDREDS of hours. Then he dropped dead from a sudden heart attack and all the leave returned back to the government. His coworkers wondering what happened. The man should have used his sick leave to take care of his health!
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2024 20:48     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:Since he's still on probation, I'd just let him go.


This. Work with HR to make the justification ironclad, but this isn't going to get better. This is what a probationary period is for.
Anonymous
Post 04/24/2024 18:27     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
This is tricky. America requires that you have a job. Many people take jobs because there is not another way to survive. That doesn't mean that people enjoy their jobs, are committed or even want to work. I have taken jobs just to keep food on the table and insurance in the wallet. When I had a lot going on, I could do just the bare minimum. I don't fault him for taking sick leave. It might the only way to get quality health care. I had a friend quit her high paying Fed job for a private sector job while her artist husband was diagnosed with cancer. The free medicaid insurance wouldn't pay for the extra biopsies. She took a job just to keep her husband alive.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 17:44     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:You let this staff member go during probation. If they were actually sick with something serious, that's one thing, but working another job too? That's another.


I agree with everyone saying to fire them during probation. The fact that they are doing this DURING the probation period speaks volumes. Personally, I would have a come to jesus meeting and give them the opportunity to explain the leave without pay and plans for reducing it in the future. But that's the old me coming out. The me who still had sympathy and energy and stuff like that. Me-from-the-future is howling for you to just fire him and be done.

But I also wonder at the fact that it took HR mentioning all the leave before you noticed it, OP. You should be the one approving the leave without pay. LWOP is different in my book than regular old earned sick leave.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 17:15     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Everyone should be able to use their leave for approved reasons and as they need. Most of you are probably good employees who don't abuse it.

If a person on probation has already had a lot of absences, this is not going to improve. You should let him go. It will be a constant.

There are also people on the other side, who should take time off. I had two employees that I think never missed a day of work in ten years. I encouraged them to take time off. They really didn't want to and didn't.


Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 17:06     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.


What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.


I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.


+1000

With the generous sick leave at the government, no one should be at a zero balance absent very serious circumstances. And yet there are many employees who don’t have those circumstances and are constantly at a leave balance of zero—and it is virtually always the low performers. Excuse after excuse after excuse— for why they can’t make it to work and for why their work isn’t done when they do.

The people getting all riled up about this clearly don’t manage people. Or not a lot of them anyway.


I’m a fed, get good performance reviews and find it hard to keep my sick leave above zero. A friend who is a manager and has been a fed over 15 years does as well. I suspect it’s because we both have children that have needed a lot of appointments. We both had our children before the federal government offered any paid leave (my husband in private industry had 6 weeks paternity leave) and that (plus kids getting sick in daycare) ran our balances down. My younger daughter has “graduated” from speech therapy but, for a few years she had an hour of speech therapy and an hour of occupational therapy a week. Luckily my husband’s job is flexible and he covers a lot of her appointments but the weeks I have to take her to these that’s all the sick leave I earn (ie 4 hrs every two weeks). In between having kids and my daughter’s appointments, a few years ago I got a concussion and had to take a full week of leave for that. The weeks I cover her appointments I try to work extra hours another day during the week, but that can he hard. My manager friend has two SN children so that’s an even bigger demand.

I do think having a whole separate full-time job is a problem though. For instance, they could probably work extra hours to cover their sick leave if it were not for the extra job.


I don’t buy the SN garbage. I had a women work for me with two SN kids, she picked my company as one mile her house and I let her sneak out to do appointments and come back later if needed to finish up. Her husband was a teacher who also worked within one mile of home. They chose careers and work locations to deal with their SN kids.


You are really gross.

Not pp, but I too had a school age SN kid. My job was 12 miles from home. Spouse's job 8 miles in other direction. PT at Georgetown hospital. OT in Kensington. SLP at our home, thank goodness. Your little 1 mile house rule and "sneaking" out ...no words. Many of us chose our careers prior to having a kid with, checks notes, unplanned special needs. We need those careers to have health ins. and pay for all the uncovered therapy costs, and our normal bills. We also do not work at the same office--we were to have 2 homes, each near and office? Oh please. Walk a mile in someone's shoes before you write your next edict.


The lower paid one should quit problem solved.

I had crazy lady calling out cause her mom dying sticking work with staff whose mom was dying but he never brought it up.

My approach if spouse or kid sick 😷 I DGAF as all my staff and bosses DGAF about me. It’s work not playtime
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 15:33     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.


What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.


I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.


+1000

With the generous sick leave at the government, no one should be at a zero balance absent very serious circumstances. And yet there are many employees who don’t have those circumstances and are constantly at a leave balance of zero—and it is virtually always the low performers. Excuse after excuse after excuse— for why they can’t make it to work and for why their work isn’t done when they do.

The people getting all riled up about this clearly don’t manage people. Or not a lot of them anyway.


I’m a fed, get good performance reviews and find it hard to keep my sick leave above zero. A friend who is a manager and has been a fed over 15 years does as well. I suspect it’s because we both have children that have needed a lot of appointments. We both had our children before the federal government offered any paid leave (my husband in private industry had 6 weeks paternity leave) and that (plus kids getting sick in daycare) ran our balances down. My younger daughter has “graduated” from speech therapy but, for a few years she had an hour of speech therapy and an hour of occupational therapy a week. Luckily my husband’s job is flexible and he covers a lot of her appointments but the weeks I have to take her to these that’s all the sick leave I earn (ie 4 hrs every two weeks). In between having kids and my daughter’s appointments, a few years ago I got a concussion and had to take a full week of leave for that. The weeks I cover her appointments I try to work extra hours another day during the week, but that can he hard. My manager friend has two SN children so that’s an even bigger demand.

I do think having a whole separate full-time job is a problem though. For instance, they could probably work extra hours to cover their sick leave if it were not for the extra job.


I don’t buy the SN garbage. I had a women work for me with two SN kids, she picked my company as one mile her house and I let her sneak out to do appointments and come back later if needed to finish up. Her husband was a teacher who also worked within one mile of home. They chose careers and work locations to deal with their SN kids.


You are really gross.

Not pp, but I too had a school age SN kid. My job was 12 miles from home. Spouse's job 8 miles in other direction. PT at Georgetown hospital. OT in Kensington. SLP at our home, thank goodness. Your little 1 mile house rule and "sneaking" out ...no words. Many of us chose our careers prior to having a kid with, checks notes, unplanned special needs. We need those careers to have health ins. and pay for all the uncovered therapy costs, and our normal bills. We also do not work at the same office--we were to have 2 homes, each near and office? Oh please. Walk a mile in someone's shoes before you write your next edict.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 15:22     Subject: Re:How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:
HR has noticed this pattern and notified me and my boss that this is excessive. They have indicated that a doctor's note is required for 5 days of consecutive sick leave. My subordinate has not taken more than 3 consecutive days. Since org guidelines do not state a doctor's note is required on days 1-4, what are my options?


HR should be identifying the options. Some employers, like the federal government, allow the supervisor to request a doctor's note for every use of sick time when sick leave abuse is suspected. Sounds like you don't have that option, or many. Don't let them make it your problem. Continue to ask HR and your boss for solutions. Ask HR for the proper verbiage to put into an email to him.


Follow this, esp. while employee is on probation.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 15:13     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
We are feds. The fed gov’s sick leave is so generous that if you only take it for legit reasons you accrue a lot of it (there are obvious exceptions to this, but they tend to be obvious). It is very common for the problem employees to use their sick leave like annual leave—and they use it as they get it, kinda like the folks who live paycheck to paycheck. The good employees never do this.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 15:03     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.


like what? seems kind of chilling
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 14:20     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.


What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.


I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.


+1000

With the generous sick leave at the government, no one should be at a zero balance absent very serious circumstances. And yet there are many employees who don’t have those circumstances and are constantly at a leave balance of zero—and it is virtually always the low performers. Excuse after excuse after excuse— for why they can’t make it to work and for why their work isn’t done when they do.

The people getting all riled up about this clearly don’t manage people. Or not a lot of them anyway.


I’m a fed, get good performance reviews and find it hard to keep my sick leave above zero. A friend who is a manager and has been a fed over 15 years does as well. I suspect it’s because we both have children that have needed a lot of appointments. We both had our children before the federal government offered any paid leave (my husband in private industry had 6 weeks paternity leave) and that (plus kids getting sick in daycare) ran our balances down. My younger daughter has “graduated” from speech therapy but, for a few years she had an hour of speech therapy and an hour of occupational therapy a week. Luckily my husband’s job is flexible and he covers a lot of her appointments but the weeks I have to take her to these that’s all the sick leave I earn (ie 4 hrs every two weeks). In between having kids and my daughter’s appointments, a few years ago I got a concussion and had to take a full week of leave for that. The weeks I cover her appointments I try to work extra hours another day during the week, but that can he hard. My manager friend has two SN children so that’s an even bigger demand.

I do think having a whole separate full-time job is a problem though. For instance, they could probably work extra hours to cover their sick leave if it were not for the extra job.


I don’t buy the SN garbage. I had a women work for me with two SN kids, she picked my company as one mile her house and I let her sneak out to do appointments and come back later if needed to finish up. Her husband was a teacher who also worked within one mile of home. They chose careers and work locations to deal with their SN kids.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 13:25     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:Since he's still on probation, I'd just let him go.


Yep. I'm not working harder for someone else's problem.
Anonymous
Post 04/23/2024 12:16     Subject: How do you handle a subordinate who takes excessive sick leave?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You need to meet with HR and discuss what you can and can’t do. Then decide what you want to do. My DH and I often talk about how you know most if not everything you need to know about an employee based on their leave balance.

I would definitely let them go if possible. This isn’t going to change.


What do you mean by this?!

I tend to sock away leave and take it in one go, while some of my US colleagues believe the company can't go on without them if they take one day. My European colleagues on the other hand all take leave at exactly the same time to do exactly the same things - beach trip to France in the summer; skiing in the Alps in the winter. I think with our varied culture here your statement comes off a bit myopic.


I agree with this poster. Absent some extenuating circumstances (just back from maternity, deployed spouse, house fire, special needs kid), a white collar office employee who is living “paycheck to paycheck” on their leave balance is rarely a top or even better that mediocre employee. I have managed teams for 15 years, cared for my own elderly parents, gestated and birthed 2 children while my spouse worked in person 5 days a week. You can make every excuse in the book, but I have dozens of current and past employees who somehow figure out how to get their kid to therapy, rebuild a house after a hurricane, and more without running leave to zero or seriously disrupting the team. The employees who always have some sort of family drama or excuse are full of excuses about their work too. It’s too much of a pattern to ignore.

This is such a disgusting american attitude that is not seen in any other place I've worked. I earn my leave. I will sure as hell use my leave. How dare you judge someone's work ethic based on using their own earned time Shitty bosses gonna be shitty bosses


You clearly fall to understand sick leave and clearly have not had to manage people—and my educated guess? You are the shitty one in your office.


NP. I agree with the above PP. It's my leave. I earned it and will use as I see fit. I see no virtue in killing myself for work. I never will.

I can also see running a low/zero balance if the employee has a health issue, a family member with a health issue, has kids that get sick . . . . lots of reasons for that. When I had my child, and then years later I had a serious set of surgeries, my leave balance was very low at times. Thankfully, my supervisors were understanding.

This person is in a probation period. And there are other red flags (the second FT job). Ask HR to get involved and conduct and investigatory meeting to see what's going on. Or just terminate if you don't want to deal. But just proceeding as you are, and moving the person around (as usually happens with people like this), while complaining is not a long term solution.