Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Like, specifically. Is it just that they aren't around enough? Is it job stress? Is it disconnect from spouse due to intensity of job (like your work is the biggest thing in your life, and your spouse isn't a part of it)?

I'm looking at these divorced men I know in their 50s, but then I know all these men in the same careers but younger (still married, young kids, seems fine from outside) and wondering how they go from one to the other. Divorce is common enough with these careers that there must be some commonalities, but I can't figure what.

I don’t doubt you know a few people that fit this but the reality is high earners do not get divorced often. Divorce rate for those with income over a million is well below 25%. At my big law firm with lots of partners I know three that divorced. Only 3. That is hundreds of partners for over a decade. All three were affairs with paralegals or associates.

Yeah, physicians/surgeons have relatively low divorce rates as well.

This is pretty cool: https://flowingdata.com/2017/07/25/divorce-and-occupation/
Scroll to: "MEDIAN SALARY VS. DIVORCE RATE"

Bartenders and flight attendants are up there.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know about lawyers, but doctors have low divorce rate overall.

Yes same for lawyers. Biglaw partners I bet is under 10%.

Anonymous wrote:I mostly see women leaving men. The men often happily move on, but the wife makes the first move to leave.

There are a lot of men especially in these types of jobs who would not get divorced and don’t cheat either. Both can ruin what you have built. Also loyalty to the mother of your children. But if the wife wants out, they are more than happy to move on and often have plan B ready to go.

Anonymous wrote:Like, specifically. Is it just that they aren't around enough? Is it job stress? Is it disconnect from spouse due to intensity of job (like your work is the biggest thing in your life, and your spouse isn't a part of it)?

I'm looking at these divorced men I know in their 50s, but then I know all these men in the same careers but younger (still married, young kids, seems fine from outside) and wondering how they go from one to the other. Divorce is common enough with these careers that there must be some commonalities, but I can't figure what.

I don’t doubt you know a few people that fit this but the reality is high earners do not get divorced often. Divorce rate for those with income over a million is well below 25%. At my big law firm with lots of partners I know three that divorced. Only 3. That is hundreds of partners for over a decade. All three were affairs with paralegals or associates.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For MDs it’s because usually the other spouse doesn’t realize the amount of work and hours involved in being a doctor and having to deal with that and on call shifts ends up wearing on people.

I do agree that this is hard if your social circle doesn’t include other MD’s. People can be really judgmental about DH not being there for parent-teacher conferences or trick-or-treat or whatever.
He goes to things when he can, but his time off is scheduled months to a year in advance, there is minimal flexibility, and he has to be there in person.
It’s hard to stand up to friend and family telling you that your spouse is inconsiderate or a jerk. Especially if you are feeling annoyed with them yourself.
I can only imagine this is worse when it’s the woman who is in medicine and leaving a lot of traditional female tasks to her husband.

I do think expectations are a big part of it, but so is peer group. Back in the day, all the doctors' wives and partners' wives would socialize together a bit more, there was mutual understanding. I feel like social groups are more diverse now and it's less straightforward. There are way more women in these fields and that changes the dynamics a lot. I was at a party this weekend where the hosts were a Big law partner and his wife (who works part-time in a very flexible job) and the remarkable thing was how none of the other couple there had that set up. My DH and I are both attorneys (I'm a fed, he works for an NGO). Another woman there is very high up at a consulting firm and her DH is a SAHD. Lots of other dual-income couples, though none involving Big Law partners (I think it's really hard to sustain two jobs when that's one of them). We all have kids around the same ages and I think there's a lot of silent comparing and contrasting with family set up. There is envy of people with more work flexibility because it can mean more time with kids, easier marriage dynamics, easier to take vacations. If the incomes are still high, it seems like an obvious win-win. The families with less flexibility, whether because of two jobs that must be maneuvered around, or one huge job that just kind of dominates everything, I think it's harder and leads to more discord if there are kids. And then it's a question of the ability to communicate, compromise, work it out, avoid resentment, etc. It's just harder. These jobs are hard on families and we no longer live in a world where they are universally facilitated by a full time SAH wife and mother who views it as her role to not only handle the home and kids but also to facilitate the furtherance of her husband's career. It's just a very different approach to marriage and career.

Jobs that require huge amounts of time at work make it harder to maintain a connection w/ the spouse this breaks down the relationship and then when kids are older and no longer need a team to take care of them spouses drift and divorce. By their nature JDs or MDs who succeed often were very work focused and therefore not as home focused. Affairs tend to vary from firm to firm imo at some firms it is rampant and at others very frowned upon

Anonymous wrote:As the daughter of a doctor father who is married to a lawyer, I caution against over-generalizing. Both are wonderful men, husbands and fathers. Present and caring.

We aren't talking about all doctors or all lawyers. We're talking about the ones in the highly demanding jobs -- surgeons and other specialists with very long hours and a lot of stress, Big Law partners. People whose jobs are pretty much always going to take precedence over family, by definition. If your dad was a pediatrician and your DH is a fed, that's a different scenario. Also, of course it's not every single person. I do know people in these jobs who seem to have happy home lives and long marriages. But I also know a lot who have strife or are divorced, some who are estranged from kids or don't have very good relationships with teenage or adult kids. These jobs can very easily lead to absent partners and fathers, and that's not great for family relationships. A person has to be extremely intentional about how they set up their life to keep their family central and be present while maintaining a job where working 6-7 days a week with often long and late hours, which is what these jobs are.

Also, this is generational due to shifting expectations regarding women and careers, and men and family. I think it used to be more common for a man in one of these jobs to have a SAHM who was not only totally happy to be home but was fulfilling her own life goals -- to be a homemaker in a family where her husband has a very prestigious and well-paying job. Obviously there are women who still feel that way, but it's not as common, and societal pressure can make it harder. I know some Big Law partners whose wives have gotten restless as their kids have gotten older, and want "second acts" in careers, but their husbands' jobs are so demanding it doesn't leave a lot of room for this. That can cause conflict.

I haven't seen this so much so I would say it may be more of a media stereotype and not real life. The few divorces I have seen in 20+yrs in those fields have either been early in the marriage with an affair (women being just as guilty of cheating, despite the stereotype) or later in marriage with no cheating but the dh is lost/not doing well at work/midlife crisis/personality disorder. Those marriages were so contentious, all of them. I think the spouses often get tired of fighting so much. That's not to say fighting means divorce is inevitable, there are also people who stay together despite seeming to hate each other but that is another issue.

I was the woman who threatened divorce as a tactic for change. Oops, he took me seriously. Otherwise, we are normal over-achievers. It all worked out fine at the end.

I think that happens too. Dudes are really great at ignoring things and still keeping content. Fold that in your observations!

I mostly see women leaving men. The men often happily move on, but the wife makes the first move to leave.

Anonymous wrote:For MDs it’s because usually the other spouse doesn’t realize the amount of work and hours involved in being a doctor and having to deal with that and on call shifts ends up wearing on people.

I do agree that this is hard if your social circle doesn’t include other MD’s. People can be really judgmental about DH not being there for parent-teacher conferences or trick-or-treat or whatever.
He goes to things when he can, but his time off is scheduled months to a year in advance, there is minimal flexibility, and he has to be there in person.
It’s hard to stand up to friend and family telling you that your spouse is inconsiderate or a jerk. Especially if you are feeling annoyed with them yourself.
I can only imagine this is worse when it’s the woman who is in medicine and leaving a lot of traditional female tasks to her husband.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People probably group these two professions because there is an easily understood, well worn path to high income success if you can grind it out hard enough. Less well understood is betting on an entrepreneur or business founder of some sort which has too many variables and risks when it comes to predicting success.

I actually want to date one of these guys. I have doctors and lawyers in my fam. ( I am one of those too). I like controlled risk takers - and I am SO curious. Hard to find in DC.

Hard to find a ... lawyer in dc?

“Business founder” in the last sentence.

For MDs it’s because usually the other spouse doesn’t realize the amount of work and hours involved in being a doctor and having to deal with that and on call shifts ends up wearing on people.

Arrogance, low EQ, affairs, neglect…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People probably group these two professions because there is an easily understood, well worn path to high income success if you can grind it out hard enough. Less well understood is betting on an entrepreneur or business founder of some sort which has too many variables and risks when it comes to predicting success.

I actually want to date one of these guys. I have doctors and lawyers in my fam. ( I am one of those too). I like controlled risk takers - and I am SO curious. Hard to find in DC.

Hard to find a ... lawyer in dc?