Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of low income students going to college dropped during covid and is now dropping again because of the FAFSA f**-up. This is going to lead to more income inequality. But on dcum, everyone is yelling about the unfair advantage first gen and poor students get and plotting how they can look like they are first gen.

The whole thing is sad and gross.

we are the only country in the world that pays for people that aren't citizens to be educated in higher institutions. It's laughable in other countries.

+1

Are people really incapable of reading a post that is maybe three posts up?

I listed 10 universities in Germany that are free for anyone, including US students that want to attend (and they are taught in English).

There are examples in the Netherlands as well.

Can we also institute tracking at an earlier age like Germany so that when kids get to university age we know they are prepared and ready?

I, for one, am so glad we don’t do this. My kid is dyslexic and has ADHD. At 12, she was not a good student. She has worked her tail off and her brain has matured. Now she is in college, with a double major and a 4.0. She wasn’t college material at 12 because the system failed to properly educate her. With proper remediation and time, she has become an excellent college student. It would be a shame to have tracked her into a career she would not have enjoyed and is below her intellectual capability because she was not ready at 12.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of low income students going to college dropped during covid and is now dropping again because of the FAFSA f**-up. This is going to lead to more income inequality. But on dcum, everyone is yelling about the unfair advantage first gen and poor students get and plotting how they can look like they are first gen.

The whole thing is sad and gross.

we are the only country in the world that pays for people that aren't citizens to be educated in higher institutions. It's laughable in other countries.

We don't pay for international students to attend college here. Vast majority are FULL pay with little to no merit (and merit is from the school not the govt if it's received). If anything, them coming reduces the tuition rates for everyone else.

I kinda agree and disagree with both of you..

Yes, International students are full pay barring some merit aid (not much). However, some undocumented immigrants/immigrants without a clear path to residency or citizenship in this country are still technically foreigners and they qualify for need-based aid, sometimes amounting to a free ride.

No, we don't need foreigners to subsidize costs. That would make sense if foreigners are only allowed to go to schools that Americans aren't fighting over each other to attend (say T50.. maybe it's T30). Rather, they compete with US full pay students and take away seats at top schools. I'd rather my full pay kid get that seat at Harvard that was given to a foreigner and 'subsidize' costs for Harvard.

Except your entire thesis is wrong. All the immigrants in Germany can go to college for free (at many) or nearly free...and actually Americans can attend those colleges right now for the exact same tuition.

Here is just a sampling of colleges in Germany that ANYONE accepted can attend for free tuition (all taught in English):

Here is a list of tuition-free universities that have English-taught programs in Germany:
Technical University of Munchen.
University of Bonn.
University of Hamburg.
TU Darmstadt.
FAU Erlangen Nurnberg.
University of Munster.
Hamburg University of Technology.
SRH University of Heidelberg.

You pay for your own room & board...but $0 tuition.

What's my thesis and why is it wrong? I was talking about US universities and the fact that we don't need foreign money to subsidize our students and you list 10 German universities are free! confused..

If your point is that we are not the only country to spend money on foreigners to study, then great! That was not my thesis.

we are the only country in the world that pays for people that aren't citizens to be educated in higher institutions. It's laughable in other countries.

So you are not the PP that wrote this?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of low income students going to college dropped during covid and is now dropping again because of the FAFSA f**-up. This is going to lead to more income inequality. But on dcum, everyone is yelling about the unfair advantage first gen and poor students get and plotting how they can look like they are first gen.

The whole thing is sad and gross.

we are the only country in the world that pays for people that aren't citizens to be educated in higher institutions. It's laughable in other countries.

We don't pay for international students to attend college here. Vast majority are FULL pay with little to no merit (and merit is from the school not the govt if it's received). If anything, them coming reduces the tuition rates for everyone else.

I kinda agree and disagree with both of you..

Yes, International students are full pay barring some merit aid (not much). However, some undocumented immigrants/immigrants without a clear path to residency or citizenship in this country are still technically foreigners and they qualify for need-based aid, sometimes amounting to a free ride.

No, we don't need foreigners to subsidize costs. That would make sense if foreigners are only allowed to go to schools that Americans aren't fighting over each other to attend (say T50.. maybe it's T30). Rather, they compete with US full pay students and take away seats at top schools. I'd rather my full pay kid get that seat at Harvard that was given to a foreigner and 'subsidize' costs for Harvard.

Except your entire thesis is wrong. All the immigrants in Germany can go to college for free (at many) or nearly free...and actually Americans can attend those colleges right now for the exact same tuition.

Here is just a sampling of colleges in Germany that ANYONE accepted can attend for free tuition (all taught in English):

Here is a list of tuition-free universities that have English-taught programs in Germany:
Technical University of Munchen.
University of Bonn.
University of Hamburg.
TU Darmstadt.
FAU Erlangen Nurnberg.
University of Munster.
Hamburg University of Technology.
SRH University of Heidelberg.

You pay for your own room & board...but $0 tuition.

What's my thesis and why is it wrong? I was talking about US universities and the fact that we don't need foreign money to subsidize our students and you list 10 German universities are free! confused..

If your point is that we are not the only country to spend money on foreigners to study, then great! That was not my thesis.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of low income students going to college dropped during covid and is now dropping again because of the FAFSA f**-up. This is going to lead to more income inequality. But on dcum, everyone is yelling about the unfair advantage first gen and poor students get and plotting how they can look like they are first gen.

The whole thing is sad and gross.

we are the only country in the world that pays for people that aren't citizens to be educated in higher institutions. It's laughable in other countries.

We don't pay for international students to attend college here. Vast majority are FULL pay with little to no merit (and merit is from the school not the govt if it's received). If anything, them coming reduces the tuition rates for everyone else.

I kinda agree and disagree with both of you..

Yes, International students are full pay barring some merit aid (not much). However, some undocumented immigrants/immigrants without a clear path to residency or citizenship in this country are still technically foreigners and they qualify for need-based aid, sometimes amounting to a free ride.

No, we don't need foreigners to subsidize costs. That would make sense if foreigners are only allowed to go to schools that Americans aren't fighting over each other to attend (say T50.. maybe it's T30). Rather, they compete with US full pay students and take away seats at top schools. I'd rather my full pay kid get that seat at Harvard that was given to a foreigner and 'subsidize' costs for Harvard.

See I love that my kid is at a T50 private school where about 25% are International students. They love the diversity. It is the private school's choice as to whom to admit. All of the international students are full pay, thereby helping to keep down tuition costs and actually providing more merit aid for those "US people" who truly need it.

Those "undocumented immigrants" are not free loading, their parents are contributing to society, often doing jobs that you and most other US citizens refuse to do (it's beneath you). Often paying into a system that they cannot access the benefits. I'd rather their kids get a college education and become contributors to the system rather than a drain on the system in the future. Just the same as I want any kid with ability to go to college to get that---education is the key to getting the next generation out of lower income/poverty.
Also, most immigrants are not the "drain on our system". Far more uneducated US citizens in that are a drain on our system than any immigrant. Most are working their asses off to succeed---they came here to escape a life much worse than any here can really imagine and majority work to make something for themselves.

Easy there cowgirl! I wasn't judging the undocumented people getting free rides. Just point out that there are some 'foreigners' (and these people are) that do. In some states, undocumented and DACA kids (not US citizens of residents) qualify for in-state tuition, while Americans born in another state don't. I sure would love to pay in-state tuition at Berkeley for my kid, but they need my full tuition to subsidize some foreigners who are in the country illegally. But..discussion on the pros and cons of that is for another thread.

My point about not needing International students to subsidize our education still stands. If the school is in demand among Americans, that international student would have easily been replaced by a full-pay American who will them be doing the subsidizing. Also, it's all great that we want diversity and pretty flowers in the park once we are 'in'. Let's say your kid didn't get into this T50 private but ended up at a T100 private (yuck), and you find out that 25% of the students at the T50 private your son didn't get into are International students, I bet your POV would be quite different. There are many Americans in those shoes.

And the third point.. While these schools are private, they don't pay their fair share of taxes. Guess, who's filling that gap? You and I, the tax payers. We should have a say in how they are run and what they do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And my 2025 HS grad will have fewer opportunities as a result, as kids graduating in 2024 will defer.

This hasn’t been discussed enough. I see many deferrals/waitlisted with Fall 2025 options. It would be very interesting to see next year for haves (top schools) and have nots (less selective and regionals).

This can has been kicked down the road since 2020, says this parent of a 2024 grad. It should get incrementally better by next year. My grad is not deferring.

This is the most damning part of the story:

Twenty-nine percent of high-school seniors submitted the Fafsa as of March 1, compared with 45% at that time last year, according to the National College Attainment Network, an advocate of increased college enrollment. The decline was even steeper among students from low-income high schools."

Heads should be rolling over this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of low income students going to college dropped during covid and is now dropping again because of the FAFSA f**-up. This is going to lead to more income inequality. But on dcum, everyone is yelling about the unfair advantage first gen and poor students get and plotting how they can look like they are first gen.

The whole thing is sad and gross.

we are the only country in the world that pays for people that aren't citizens to be educated in higher institutions. It's laughable in other countries.

+1

Are people really incapable of reading a post that is maybe three posts up?

I listed 10 universities in Germany that are free for anyone, including US students that want to attend (and they are taught in English).

There are examples in the Netherlands as well.

Can we also institute tracking at an earlier age like Germany so that when kids get to university age we know they are prepared and ready?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: The department of education was too busy trying to figure out how to forgive student loans so FAFSA suffered..the same company responsible for healthcare.gov in the Obama years is responsible for new and improved FAFSA.

Gotta love the democrats.

what has Rs done for healthcare or college costs?

They’ve ensured that only rich people have access.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of low income students going to college dropped during covid and is now dropping again because of the FAFSA f**-up. This is going to lead to more income inequality. But on dcum, everyone is yelling about the unfair advantage first gen and poor students get and plotting how they can look like they are first gen.

The whole thing is sad and gross.

we are the only country in the world that pays for people that aren't citizens to be educated in higher institutions. It's laughable in other countries.

We don't pay for international students to attend college here. Vast majority are FULL pay with little to no merit (and merit is from the school not the govt if it's received). If anything, them coming reduces the tuition rates for everyone else.

I kinda agree and disagree with both of you..

Yes, International students are full pay barring some merit aid (not much). However, some undocumented immigrants/immigrants without a clear path to residency or citizenship in this country are still technically foreigners and they qualify for need-based aid, sometimes amounting to a free ride.

No, we don't need foreigners to subsidize costs. That would make sense if foreigners are only allowed to go to schools that Americans aren't fighting over each other to attend (say T50.. maybe it's T30). Rather, they compete with US full pay students and take away seats at top schools. I'd rather my full pay kid get that seat at Harvard that was given to a foreigner and 'subsidize' costs for Harvard.

See I love that my kid is at a T50 private school where about 25% are International students. They love the diversity. It is the private school's choice as to whom to admit. All of the international students are full pay, thereby helping to keep down tuition costs and actually providing more merit aid for those "US people" who truly need it.

Those "undocumented immigrants" are not free loading, their parents are contributing to society, often doing jobs that you and most other US citizens refuse to do (it's beneath you). Often paying into a system that they cannot access the benefits. I'd rather their kids get a college education and become contributors to the system rather than a drain on the system in the future. Just the same as I want any kid with ability to go to college to get that---education is the key to getting the next generation out of lower income/poverty.
Also, most immigrants are not the "drain on our system". Far more uneducated US citizens in that are a drain on our system than any immigrant. Most are working their asses off to succeed---they came here to escape a life much worse than any here can really imagine and majority work to make something for themselves.

Sorry, need to respond to this: "Those "undocumented immigrants" are not free loading, their parents are contributing to society, often doing jobs that you and most other US citizens refuse to do (it's beneath you)."

Americans generally don't do these jobs because they see it as "beneath them," they don't do this jobs because the wages offered aren't high enough. People need to stop thinking of immigration as a left/right issue and more of a class warfare issue. Open borders BY DEFINITION depress wages at the bottom of the scale, which is why corporations/big business, which talk such a big game about border security, actually love the status quo. Why pay higher wages and deal with a unionized workforce when you can just hire undocumented immigrants under the table and pay them peanuts for unpleasant and often dangerous work?

Whew — it’s a good thing that “open borders” only exist in crazy insurgent Republican fever dreams.

Meanwhile in the real world, US Border Partrol agents are working tirelessly to enforce restrictive US immigration policies and deporting people from the US daily —- despite those on the US political right pushing the notion that the US has open border to try to create a border crisis.

Also, you may want to read some economics. The question of the net impact of immigration on the US standard of living has been studied endlessly, and it’s been found to be a huge win for US citizens’ quality of life.

“ The evidence suggests that when immigration increases the supply of labor, firms increase investment to offset any reduction in capital per worker, thereby keeping average wages from falling over the long term. Moreover, immigrants are often imperfect substitutes for native-born workers in U.S. labor markets. That means they do not compete for the same jobs and put minimal downward pressure on natives’ wages.”

https://budgetmodel.wharton.upenn.edu/issues/2016/1/27/the-effects-of-immigration-on-the-united-states-economy


Economist - shortfall in immigration is a problem for America.
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2022/07/28/a-shortfall-in-immigration-has-become-an-economic-problem-for-america?ppccampaignID=&ppcadID=&ppcgclID=&utm_medium=cpc.adword.pd&utm_source=google&ppccampaignID=17210591673&ppcadID=&utm_campaign=a.22brand_pmax&utm_content=conversion.direct-response.anonymous&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwwMqvBhCtARIsAIXsZpaf1gnsGDH7xgQ99z7t2Ao0rU38Yy-Jeo1gPJ1VxgkpmFD9DkcDUJMaAjxVEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of low income students going to college dropped during covid and is now dropping again because of the FAFSA f**-up. This is going to lead to more income inequality. But on dcum, everyone is yelling about the unfair advantage first gen and poor students get and plotting how they can look like they are first gen.

The whole thing is sad and gross.

we are the only country in the world that pays for people that aren't citizens to be educated in higher institutions. It's laughable in other countries.

We don't pay for international students to attend college here. Vast majority are FULL pay with little to no merit (and merit is from the school not the govt if it's received). If anything, them coming reduces the tuition rates for everyone else.

I kinda agree and disagree with both of you..

Yes, International students are full pay barring some merit aid (not much). However, some undocumented immigrants/immigrants without a clear path to residency or citizenship in this country are still technically foreigners and they qualify for need-based aid, sometimes amounting to a free ride.

No, we don't need foreigners to subsidize costs. That would make sense if foreigners are only allowed to go to schools that Americans aren't fighting over each other to attend (say T50.. maybe it's T30). Rather, they compete with US full pay students and take away seats at top schools. I'd rather my full pay kid get that seat at Harvard that was given to a foreigner and 'subsidize' costs for Harvard.

No, they don’t.

Unlike just about every other country in the world, the US doesn’t heavily subsidize tuition for non-citizen permanent resident. People who are undocumented and don’t have US residency are not eligible for federal financial aid. The only non-citizens eligible are permanent residents, some narrowly defined groups like victims of human trafficking, and residents of current or former US possessions.

https://studentaid.gov/help/eligible-noncitizen