Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am very happy to read that the white woman brought this issue up. I wish our workplaces were safe spaces to discuss these things without risking a job, a lawsuit, or offering black women a pathway to better leadership. I often think black women leaders feel they need to overcompensate and lead with an iron fist. This is a cultural way to gain respect. 

My recommendation is to send this leader to training or hire a black leadership coach who can serve as a liaison to say the hard things that the white woman can't or is afraid to say. Leadership coaches are supposed to hit the sore spots. I had an Asian male as a leadership coach, and I am a black woman. I really enjoyed his perspectives, approaches, and neutral observations. He was often in situations where racial bias was overwhelmingly obvious. He mastered handling it without creating tension. I learned so much from him and have excelled in many areas. White men and women live in a different reality, and these comments that demand that you fire her or try a legal approach prove how most white people address conflict or tension.

I think this leader has potential, and her austere exterior might be the perfect approach for a different type of team. Figure out how to get the most out of her that is best for your organization.

OP again. Thank you, PP. This is the thing: I actually like her a lot and think she is super-talented! I want her to succeed and be the superstar she can be. I just don't know how to talk to her about this. It would be easier if we knew each other better, and some trust had been built up, but we don't have that relationship. I don't want to make things worse, but don't know if there is any way to make them better.

OP, I think you need to understand that she may sue the company and name you. You really need to watch your boundaries a lot better. The idea of hiring a leadership coach is one to raise with management. You really should be talking with HR and general counsel about all of this. Not seeing yourself as some yoda/big sister figure.

I appreciate your good intentions but goodness, watch your back! And that of your organization.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any black folks out here on this board with suggestions?

This.

I’m Black and am not here to fix your problems.

So don't post. No one's making you do anything. OP is asking for help. You don't have to give it.

It’s not difficult to read and educate yourself. It’s not the job of black or old to educate white people. It’s exhausting, they’d literally be educating 24x7.

We have enough resources that we can’t expect black peoples to constantly educate.

I'm sorry, this "it's not my job to educate you" business is such crap. What exactly is your theory of change?

We're all in this together. This country. If your attitude towards well-meaning people asking for help understanding oppression is "f* off, it's not my job to educate you," guess what? Things ain't gonna change. Things change when people show empathy and share experiences and perspectives. Going off in a huff just reinforces stereotypes and fosters ill will. It may make you feel better, but it makes the world worse.

You can’t just sit in your ignorance and ask for a free education.

Have you read books on the subject, watch documentaries? And have question. What are they?

Asking for a full ass education because you are too lazy to learn on your own shows me you don’t really GAF so why waste my time if it’s gonna slide off your back.

Start with White Fragility (to understand your current feelings), check out the 13th that’s a fun one.

DP. I don't expect you to educate me, but don't expect me to buy into all your BS, then.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please reflect hard on this. What would the reactions be to this person if they were a white man who was doing the exact things she was doing?

In most situations, a white man would 'get away' with the same behaviors because he would be less likely to be questioned, even if he made people uncomfortable and resentful.

This is OP. I have had virtually the same conversations with multiple white males. That's a huge part of my job: dealing with obnoxious people who treat others badly, and trying to find tactful ways to communicate to them that this is not okay. I completely agree that white men often get a pass for behavior that is considered abrasive in women, and especially in black women. But in this particular case, I really don't think that is what is going on. What she's doing is actually pretty egregious.

So tell her that. "I want you to know I hear what you are saying, and I have considered it, but in this instance you are off-base. I have had the same conversation with x number of people before, many of whom were white males (or females or whatever). Specifically, here are the issues I am seeing which are not just "behavior" but actual violations of our policy ...."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any black folks out here on this board with suggestions?

This.

I’m Black and am not here to fix your problems.

So don't post. No one's making you do anything. OP is asking for help. You don't have to give it.

It’s not difficult to read and educate yourself. It’s not the job of black or old to educate white people. It’s exhausting, they’d literally be educating 24x7.

We have enough resources that we can’t expect black peoples to constantly educate.

I'm sorry, this "it's not my job to educate you" business is such crap. What exactly is your theory of change?

We're all in this together. This country. If your attitude towards well-meaning people asking for help understanding oppression is "f* off, it's not my job to educate you," guess what? Things ain't gonna change. Things change when people show empathy and share experiences and perspectives. Going off in a huff just reinforces stereotypes and fosters ill will. It may make you feel better, but it makes the world worse.

You can’t just sit in your ignorance and ask for a free education.

Have you read books on the subject, watch documentaries? And have question. What are they?

Asking for a full ass education because you are too lazy to learn on your own shows me you don’t really GAF so why waste my time if it’s gonna slide off your back.

Start with White Fragility (to understand your current feelings), check out the 13th that’s a fun one.

Anonymous wrote:The reality is if she was a white man she would be considered assertive.

We do judge women, especially black women, differently when they are assertive.

Men use direct language and women use collaborative language. When a woman uses direct language they are called aggressive.

She is right, your feedback is based on unconscious bias..

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any black folks out here on this board with suggestions?

This.

I’m Black and am not here to fix your problems.

So don't post. No one's making you do anything. OP is asking for help. You don't have to give it.

It’s not difficult to read and educate yourself. It’s not the job of black or old to educate white people. It’s exhausting, they’d literally be educating 24x7.

We have enough resources that we can’t expect black peoples to constantly educate.

I'm sorry, this "it's not my job to educate you" business is such crap. What exactly is your theory of change?

We're all in this together. This country. If your attitude towards well-meaning people asking for help understanding oppression is "f* off, it's not my job to educate you," guess what? Things ain't gonna change. Things change when people show empathy and share experiences and perspectives. Going off in a huff just reinforces stereotypes and fosters ill will. It may make you feel better, but it makes the world worse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any black folks out here on this board with suggestions?

This.

I’m Black and am not here to fix your problems.

So don't post. No one's making you do anything. OP is asking for help. You don't have to give it.

It’s not difficult to read and educate yourself. It’s not the job of black or old to educate white people. It’s exhausting, they’d literally be educating 24x7.

We have enough resources that we can’t expect black peoples to constantly educate.

I'm sorry, this "it's not my job to educate you" business is such crap. What exactly is your theory of change?

We're all in this together. This country. If your attitude towards well-meaning people asking for help understanding oppression is "f* off, it's not my job to educate you," guess what? Things ain't gonna change. Things change when people show empathy and share experiences and perspectives. Going off in a huff just reinforces stereotypes and fosters ill will. It may make you feel better, but it makes the world worse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any black folks out here on this board with suggestions?

This.

I’m Black and am not here to fix your problems.

So don't post. No one's making you do anything. OP is asking for help. You don't have to give it.

It’s not difficult to read and educate yourself. It’s not the job of black or old to educate white people. It’s exhausting, they’d literally be educating 24x7.

We have enough resources that we can’t expect black peoples to constantly educate.

Anonymous wrote:Is there any way in the world for a white woman to say to a black woman, "Please at least consider the possibility that this is not about race and gender, but that you are behaving in a way that would be perceived negatively regardless of your race and gender"?

I feel like... yes, racism is real. Yes, many many many black women and men struggle against negative stereotyping in the workplace... but the existence of bias and racist stereotypes does not mean it's okay to blame all criticism on racism!

But I feel like if you say that, it's just taken as more proof of your unconscious racism.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Please reflect hard on this. What would the reactions be to this person if they were a white man who was doing the exact things she was doing?

In most situations, a white man would 'get away' with the same behaviors because he would be less likely to be questioned, even if he made people uncomfortable and resentful.

This is OP. I have had virtually the same conversations with multiple white males. That's a huge part of my job: dealing with obnoxious people who treat others badly, and trying to find tactful ways to communicate to them that this is not okay. I completely agree that white men often get a pass for behavior that is considered abrasive in women, and especially in black women. But in this particular case, I really don't think that is what is going on. What she's doing is actually pretty egregious.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The reality is if she was a white man she would be considered assertive.

We do judge women, especially black women, differently when they are assertive.

Men use direct language and women use collaborative language. When a woman uses direct language they are called aggressive.

She is right, your feedback is based on unconscious bias. So now what do you do?

Also listing the thing she does to support your unconscious bias is called confirmation bias.

Everybody has bias. It’s fine, relax.

This article may help.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-women-called-aggressive-while-men-assertive-limor-bergman-nfmfc#:~:text=Stereotypes%20and%20Gender%20Norms%3A&text=Meanwhile%2C%20men%20are%20expected%20to,being%20labeled%20as%20%22aggressive.%22

She needs to be aware that her communication has intention and impact and because of unconscious bias people don’t receive her message as she intends. Her intention and impact do not line up. Sure it’s not fair that people are emotionally traumatized when women are assertive but you can’t change that.

As for the staff. They sound like they are simply going through storming and norming process. This happens to every new team. She is making changes and people are acting like babies. Obviously you can’t say that.

If you are unaware of what storming forming norming performing is this explains it.

https://www.mindtools.com/abyj5fi/forming-storming-norming-and-performing

Take the emotion out of the conversation.

She wants them to do X they want to do Y. Unless they can show value at not doing it her way they need to suck it up.

You also need to manage the storming stage better I’m sure you can google it.

Wow, storming, forming, norming, performing -- thanks for taking me way back to my early 90s management consulting life!

Anonymous wrote:The reality is if she was a white man she would be considered assertive.

We do judge women, especially black women, differently when they are assertive.

Men use direct language and women use collaborative language. When a woman uses direct language they are called aggressive.

She is right, your feedback is based on unconscious bias. So now what do you do?

Also listing the thing she does to support your unconscious bias is called confirmation bias.

Everybody has bias. It’s fine, relax.

This article may help.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-women-called-aggressive-while-men-assertive-limor-bergman-nfmfc#:~:text=Stereotypes%20and%20Gender%20Norms%3A&text=Meanwhile%2C%20men%20are%20expected%20to,being%20labeled%20as%20%22aggressive.%22

She needs to be aware that her communication has intention and impact and because of unconscious bias people don’t receive her message as she intends. Her intention and impact do not line up. Sure it’s not fair that people are emotionally traumatized when women are assertive but you can’t change that.

As for the staff. They sound like they are simply going through storming and norming process. This happens to every new team. She is making changes and people are acting like babies. Obviously you can’t say that.

If you are unaware of what storming forming norming performing is this explains it.

https://www.mindtools.com/abyj5fi/forming-storming-norming-and-performing

Take the emotion out of the conversation.

She wants them to do X they want to do Y. Unless they can show value at not doing it her way they need to suck it up.

You also need to manage the storming stage better I’m sure you can google it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bad bosses are all the same. White men who are truly bad bosses don’t get away with it—their staff leave and complain too. They may get softer landings though. Find her an off ramp if you can. Also, do not discuss this with her anymore. HR needs to deal with it.

I disagree. Incompetent or mediocre white men rise to the top of the ranks. They get away with it all the time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am very happy to read that the white woman brought this issue up. I wish our workplaces were safe spaces to discuss these things without risking a job, a lawsuit, or offering black women a pathway to better leadership. I often think black women leaders feel they need to overcompensate and lead with an iron fist. This is a cultural way to gain respect. 

My recommendation is to send this leader to training or hire a black leadership coach who can serve as a liaison to say the hard things that the white woman can't or is afraid to say. Leadership coaches are supposed to hit the sore spots. I had an Asian male as a leadership coach, and I am a black woman. I really enjoyed his perspectives, approaches, and neutral observations. He was often in situations where racial bias was overwhelmingly obvious. He mastered handling it without creating tension. I learned so much from him and have excelled in many areas. White men and women live in a different reality, and these comments that demand that you fire her or try a legal approach prove how most white people address conflict or tension.

I think this leader has potential, and her austere exterior might be the perfect approach for a different type of team. Figure out how to get the most out of her that is best for your organization.

OP again. Thank you, PP. This is the thing: I actually like her a lot and think she is super-talented! I want her to succeed and be the superstar she can be. I just don't know how to talk to her about this. It would be easier if we knew each other better, and some trust had been built up, but we don't have that relationship. I don't want to make things worse, but don't know if there is any way to make them better.

Anonymous wrote:Why are people assuming this is just about being “too direct”?

Doesn’t sound that way. Sounds like this person is not listening to her staff, and annoying her peers.