Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

There is no reason for you to understand that life in the eighteenth century was fairly brutal and harsh for everyone, be they the 12 year old cabin boy plucked from the whorehouse in London, or the planter dying of syphilis, or his Irish servants also dying of syphilis, or his African slaves. Your complete blindness to any facts, your willingness to erase history doesn't help those dead slaves, or make their descendants' lives better. It's a hollow gesture, performed by someone who is undoubtedly proud their own ancestors weren't there... But also too lazy to check on what their own ancestors were up to. I guarantee, even without knowing you, there was some non consensual stuff going on in your family tree as well.

By dehumanizing slave owners, you're erasing slavery. No one is saying chattal slavery wasn't awful, but in the 18th, in a place like Philadelphia, it was only one of several unjust labor systems, all designed to function in a pre-industrial world with varying regards for the welfare of the people involved.

Anonymous wrote:Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

ICYMI: Obama and Clinton were against gay marriage…a woefully ignorant take at the time…and emblematic of how far we’ve come in a matter of years.

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

There is no reason to celebrate humans who owned other humans.

This shouldn't be a hard concept to understand.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn

Wasn’t Penn a Quaker who lived peacefully with native Americans? And quakers were antislavery. In fact, Pennsylvania was a haven for freed slaves thanks to the Underground Railroad essentially run by quakers.

I'm sure of you talked to the native Americans who experienced white settlers encroaching on their land, they would have a different story. For instance, they might say that they were forced to live peacefully next to their captors and oppressors.:. But sure let's Romanticize history.

You sure do, with your 19th century mindset. Noble savages, huh? All indigenous people were garlanded with flowers and living peacefully and sustainably in the forest before the evil colonizers came?

The irony is, you're probably descended from the people who were burning Quakers and Jews at the stake back in the old country. You are so ignorant of history you have no idea why people came here fleeing religious persecution, what a big deal Pennsylvania was for so many religious sects. An eighteenth century person would find you woefully ignorant.

Let's apply the standards of today to everyone that lived more than 200 years ago.
Then, in 100 years, we can apply the standards of that time to all the people alive today.
I am sure the enlightened souls in 2124 will find something repulsive about Obama, Clinton, and pretty much any leader we have had in the 20th and 21st century. Those memorials can then be removed.

It will take no time to wipe away all the history of our nation. Except, of course, Jan. 6, 2021. That day is more important than 9-11, D-Day, the Civil War, or any event in the past 2000 years. All history courses will be based on that day and that day only.

And, I am wondering what these enlightened souls will have to say about the George Floyd memorials constructed in Minnesota, NYC, and NJ.
He was such a virtuous person after all. /s

Anonymous wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn

Wasn’t Penn a Quaker who lived peacefully with native Americans? And quakers were antislavery. In fact, Pennsylvania was a haven for freed slaves thanks to the Underground Railroad essentially run by quakers.

Yes.

Maybe Penn, who came from an aristocratic family, would fail the smell test today as given by the children of today's aristocratic families, who are incapable of making any connection to history between the undocumented laborers who mow their lawns, and the undocumented nannies who raised them... But that's because these people are, as we'd say in the colloquial Philadelphese, "morons."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Eastern civilization was … peacefully built?

+ 1

I think we can all rattle off a list of non-western countries where women still don’t enjoy equality, gays are thrown off buildings, etc. Forget their colonizing history…just look at how they behave today in 2024…how they treat “others” largely defined by ethnicity and/or religion.

It’s preposterous to assert our imperfect history and subsequent evolution are somehow worse than how other countries behave today.

This is the issue with revisionist and excusers of Western society. Instead of accepting responsibility, they say see ... others did it too! Negating that we are only discussing Western society & values and currentness here in America. We don't live in Eastern society, their values should not be ours nor should we point out what the other side of the world did or did not do. Hold yourselves accountable, let's stop pointing out what is going on elsewhere because that is irrelevant.
Tear it all down and start over.

But, haven’t we?

Slavery was abolished. Civil rights have been enacted. Gay marriage is legal.

Do you mean to suggest society hasn’t evolved?

Nobody is using whataboutism to negate our imperfect history. Rather, we are trying to get people like you to acknowledge that our history is no worse than others…and in fact, we’ve made great strides to level the playing field and provide people with opportunities while other countries have not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn

Wasn’t Penn a Quaker who lived peacefully with native Americans? And quakers were antislavery. In fact, Pennsylvania was a haven for freed slaves thanks to the Underground Railroad essentially run by quakers.

I'm sure of you talked to the native Americans who experienced white settlers encroaching on their land, they would have a different story. For instance, they might say that they were forced to live peacefully next to their captors and oppressors.:. But sure let's Romanticize history.

Eh, I’m not romanticizing. Colonizers colonize. That’s been the case since the dawn of time. But Penn wasn’t rounding up native Americans and marching them west or killing them.

NP. Colonizers colonize. How astute you are. He was also an enslaver but I guess that is okay for you. Enslavers enslave, right?

It's OK for anyone with the IQ not to judge 18th century people by the standards and morals of the 21st century -- especially since slavery existed for all recorded history (and still does in Africa and elsewhere)...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Penn

Wasn’t Penn a Quaker who lived peacefully with native Americans? And quakers were antislavery. In fact, Pennsylvania was a haven for freed slaves thanks to the Underground Railroad essentially run by quakers.

Penn owned and traded slaves.

Not many. And he gave them up when he returned to England—freeing some, selling others.

He didn’t enslave many human beings. He didn’t engage in trading that many slaves. The lengths you people will go to in order to protect evil.

Not trying to protect evil.

Just trying to put it in context.

The guy wasn’t as evil as modern day judgment would suggest.

Generally speaking, Pennsylvania wasn’t heavily involved in slavery and the state was among the first to outlaw slavery thanks to abolition efforts led by the quakers.

Well obviously William Penn as an enslaver wasn’t involved in abolition led by people who were his better. Maybe they deserve commemoration rather than an enslaver like William Penn?

When are we renaming Pennsylvania instead of honoring this evil man?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

No one is afraid of a statue. There's a 37-foot version of the same statue on Philly's City Hall. There's an entire state named after William Penn.

Feel better now?

Then why remove a statue of a person from the site of their home?

Fragility indeed.

So much virtue, not enough causes to support. The laziness of the signalers. I hope those that support this waste of time and resources feel better.

Me….I wish you spent half the energy helping to fix my neighborhood.

They're also changing the state name
from Penn-sylvania to Trans-sylvania.

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

No one is afraid of a statue. There's a 37-foot version of the same statue on Philly's City Hall. There's an entire state named after William Penn.

Feel better now?

I can't imagine how people are so afraid of a statue.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody should be surprised when Americans no longer take pride in the western democracy and values we established thanks to the continued denigration of our history. Was it a perfect history? No. But it resulted in a democracy built on the rule of law and eventual equality unmatched around the globe…and yet here we are promoting a narrative that we should only feel shame.

Instead of tearing down a statue and erasing history, why not add a component recognizing the Native American past?

We are heading down the wrong path when we rewrite history and tarnish our accomplishments with shame.

Stop dividing; start reunifying.

We are Americans…regardless of when your ancestors arrived and regardless of where you came from. Unify under our american values and celebrate the diversity of all who came here for a better life.

Lastly: stop pretending that America is a miserable failure. It isn’t.

There can be no unity without repentance. I'm glad the Biden admin is taking this steps. Western civilization was built on disease, death & destruction of others. There is no pride in that kind of society. There has been no other society as destructive and unkind to humans as Western civilization. So if the goal is to move ahead, we need to leave the past behind. Start over.

Start over based on what foundation?

Democracy, equality, western values, rule of law, etc.?

These are American values developed and perfected in the USA over time. Many, many countries still lag faaaaar behind.

Do you suggest we rebuild based on the current hyper-divisive climate where we are meant to feel nothing but shame rather than acknowledge our imperfect past and tremendous evolution?

It’s divisive in-part because people like you continue to elevate colonizers and enslavers like Penn (and a myriad of others) that allow you to maintain a privileged place in society.

Sincere question: are you only outraged by European colonialism and American slavery?

Because surely you must realize that people around the globe have engaged in colonialism and slavery…including modern day human trafficking that typically has nonwhites trafficking other nonwhites.

America remains one of the few places (perhaps only place) where anyone can thrive.

Europeans and western society have much to make amends for but this discussion is about William Penn the enslaver and slave trader. He should not be honored with idols that don’t account for his evil. Don’t try to obfuscate this with your whataboutism.

I’m not sure it’s accurate to call him a slave trader. Historical accounts seem to only document (as many as perhaps) 12 slaves, many of whom were freed by him. Historical accounts seem to document a handful of slaves who worked in his home.

Link if you find something documenting his engagement in slave trading as a business venture.