Anonymous wrote:Because not everyone is miserable and many people, including women, benefit from the patriarchy. Many women have no desire to hold leadership positions, climb the corporate ladder and take on a traditionally male role in life. This is difficult for many women in liberal circles to understand.

I grew up in a conservative and relatively affluent area where most women stayed home. I’m not convinced my current life is any better and may actually be worse. I’m resentful I’m expected to have children and also a high earning career. Many of my childhood friends stay home with kids and have never had successful careers. They seem happier and not any worse off financially.

I have friends in Northern Europe where there’s much greater equality between the sexes and these couples seem especially unhappy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know we like to blame men, and that's definitely a big part of it, but I think we need to look at the issue other women bring to it as well. This forum is a good example to see how women play a part in contributing to the patriarchy. Shaming women for working, shaming women for putting themselves first, shaming women for staying at home, shame, shame, shame. Im real life, I've dealt with female managers trying to tear me down because the big boss has liked my ideas. I've seen people talk shit about a female boss for no reason other than she was a powerful female.

So yes, men play a huge role. But ignoring how we contribute to it too will never get the issue solved.

100%. For a long time I've been thinking about how men kind of outsource the work of patriarchy to women. So often it's women who enforce these expectations for other women regarding appearance, motherhood, and behavior. It's women who are most likely to shame a woman for her sexual activity, her parenting, how she looks and dresses. Men do it too, but it often feels that women spearhead it. And it starts early -- my mom was the first person of any gender who made me feel like I was less worthy as a person because I am female. It's something she'd internalized and definitely passed onto me. My dad did too (my dad is actually a huge misogynist) and I'm not letting him off the hook, but my mom *taught* me that I was less than, whereas my dad just treated me that way.

I also think so often female friendship functioning in a similar way, sadly. As I've gotten older I've learned to be pretty selective about friendships generally, but especially about the dynamics in female friendships. Often it starts out as what seems like solidarity, like "we're all in this together," but it can morph into an expectation that you will behave always in ways approved by the female friend group, and if you deviate, you will be gossiped about and excluded. It looks like just "mean girl" dynamics and gets written off as women being catty. But often there's a component of patriarchy. Because say a friend group ostracize a member because she's "sleeping around." What reason would other women have to judge or exclude another woman for being sexually active? It doesn't impact them. But what's really happening is that they are subscribing to patriarchal ideas about how women should behave and what women are "allowed" to do with their bodies, and they are trying to enforce these rules because they believe it will benefit them to keep all women in line in this way. Or sometimes women do this to elevate themselves in the eyes of men, like "I am one of the good women, not like that harlot over there." These dynamics are sadly very common.

I'm working hard to raise my daughter differently and have spent years cultivating healthy friendships with women where we are genuinely supportive and there is never shame or that kind of judgment. It takes work, because these ideas are still so prevalent, But I hope the upshot is that it's easier for my daughter because it will be all she knows.

This is interesting and I wonder HOW you teach your daughter about society's misogyny without teaching her she's less than?

I hope I'm not teaching my daughter she's less than. I consider myself a feminist and I point out sexism to her. But at the same time I tell her society will judge her negatively for every it judges a man favorably. If she's slightly a sloppy eater 'she has no manners' vs 'he's great eating with utensils'. Or, the classic - speak up ...
but not too loud nonsense. I've already told her she will have to work twice as hard for half as much credit (this is my experience) and when she starts to be successful, women (and some men), will come out of the woodwork to push her down. She is already seeing this, but I hope it's not because I taught her to view herself as less. I want her to see what's behind the microaggressive behaviors in society.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know we like to blame men, and that's definitely a big part of it, but I think we need to look at the issue other women bring to it as well. This forum is a good example to see how women play a part in contributing to the patriarchy. Shaming women for working, shaming women for putting themselves first, shaming women for staying at home, shame, shame, shame. Im real life, I've dealt with female managers trying to tear me down because the big boss has liked my ideas. I've seen people talk shit about a female boss for no reason other than she was a powerful female.

So yes, men play a huge role. But ignoring how we contribute to it too will never get the issue solved.

100%. For a long time I've been thinking about how men kind of outsource the work of patriarchy to women. So often it's women who enforce these expectations for other women regarding appearance, motherhood, and behavior. It's women who are most likely to shame a woman for her sexual activity, her parenting, how she looks and dresses. Men do it too, but it often feels that women spearhead it. And it starts early -- my mom was the first person of any gender who made me feel like I was less worthy as a person because I am female. It's something she'd internalized and definitely passed onto me. My dad did too (my dad is actually a huge misogynist) and I'm not letting him off the hook, but my mom *taught* me that I was less than, whereas my dad just treated me that way.

I also think so often female friendship functioning in a similar way, sadly. As I've gotten older I've learned to be pretty selective about friendships generally, but especially about the dynamics in female friendships. Often it starts out as what seems like solidarity, like "we're all in this together," but it can morph into an expectation that you will behave always in ways approved by the female friend group, and if you deviate, you will be gossiped about and excluded. It looks like just "mean girl" dynamics and gets written off as women being catty. But often there's a component of patriarchy. Because say a friend group ostracize a member because she's "sleeping around." What reason would other women have to judge or exclude another woman for being sexually active? It doesn't impact them. But what's really happening is that they are subscribing to patriarchal ideas about how women should behave and what women are "allowed" to do with their bodies, and they are trying to enforce these rules because they believe it will benefit them to keep all women in line in this way. Or sometimes women do this to elevate themselves in the eyes of men, like "I am one of the good women, not like that harlot over there." These dynamics are sadly very common.

I'm working hard to raise my daughter differently and have spent years cultivating healthy friendships with women where we are genuinely supportive and there is never shame or that kind of judgment. It takes work, because these ideas are still so prevalent, But I hope the upshot is that it's easier for my daughter because it will be all she knows.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

I'm a left wing and very educated but begrudgingly admit that my role as mother and homemaker has been exponentially better for my children and my husband's career. Which means better for my life but short term and long term. We could have switched roles but while I could have made what DH makes (which is a lot), he would have been mediocre at raising the kids and keeping our house running. American society is barely set up for 2 working parents, let alone 2 working parents who want to have high-achieving, well-adjusted kids and happy parents. That's why the patriarchy is alive and well.

The idea that men are incapable and inefficient at household duties is myth. Of course your husband never cared about learning how to manage a household, he saw his mother do it all for him and then you happily stepped into the role to do the same. And then of course your daughters will do the same and leave the workforce while your sons never learn to do chores or manage a household.

household.

Ooh, I have an idea. Let's shame women for their decisions! That will improve things....

There is nothing in this comment that is shaming anyone. It is explaining how the patriarchy perpetuates itself.

Why don’t you examine why this reality makes you feel so defensive and triggered.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know we like to blame men, and that's definitely a big part of it, but I think we need to look at the issue other women bring to it as well. This forum is a good example to see how women play a part in contributing to the patriarchy. Shaming women for working, shaming women for putting themselves first, shaming women for staying at home, shame, shame, shame. Im real life, I've dealt with female managers trying to tear me down because the big boss has liked my ideas. I've seen people talk shit about a female boss for no reason other than she was a powerful female.

So yes, men play a huge role. But ignoring how we contribute to it too will never get the issue solved.

100%. For a long time I've been thinking about how men kind of outsource the work of patriarchy to women. So often it's women who enforce these expectations for other women regarding appearance, motherhood, and behavior. It's women who are most likely to shame a woman for her sexual activity, her parenting, how she looks and dresses. Men do it too, but it often feels that women spearhead it. And it starts early -- my mom was the first person of any gender who made me feel like I was less worthy as a person because I am female. It's something she'd internalized and definitely passed onto me. My dad did too (my dad is actually a huge misogynist) and I'm not letting him off the hook, but my mom *taught* me that I was less than, whereas my dad just treated me that way.

I also think so often female friendship functioning in a similar way, sadly. As I've gotten older I've learned to be pretty selective about friendships generally, but especially about the dynamics in female friendships. Often it starts out as what seems like solidarity, like "we're all in this together," but it can morph into an expectation that you will behave always in ways approved by the female friend group, and if you deviate, you will be gossiped about and excluded. It looks like just "mean girl" dynamics and gets written off as women being catty. But often there's a component of patriarchy. Because say a friend group ostracize a member because she's "sleeping around." What reason would other women have to judge or exclude another woman for being sexually active? It doesn't impact them. But what's really happening is that they are subscribing to patriarchal ideas about how women should behave and what women are "allowed" to do with their bodies, and they are trying to enforce these rules because they believe it will benefit them to keep all women in line in this way. Or sometimes women do this to elevate themselves in the eyes of men, like "I am one of the good women, not like that harlot over there." These dynamics are sadly very common.

I'm working hard to raise my daughter differently and have spent years cultivating healthy friendships with women where we are genuinely supportive and there is never shame or that kind of judgment. It takes work, because these ideas are still so prevalent, But I hope the upshot is that it's easier for my daughter because it will be all she knows.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

Being a mother kinda IS our role, men can't carry, birth or nurse babies. We do need to be compensated for that. Household and child raising are where men need to step up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because some women uphold it. Particularly mothers of sons.

+1
And some women don't want to lose the social status attached to their rich white man. I've seen many SAHMs who love to brag about their husband's career as if it were their own accomplishment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

I'm a left wing and very educated but begrudgingly admit that my role as mother and homemaker has been exponentially better for my children and my husband's career. Which means better for my life but short term and long term. We could have switched roles but while I could have made what DH makes (which is a lot), he would have been mediocre at raising the kids and keeping our house running. American society is barely set up for 2 working parents, let alone 2 working parents who want to have high-achieving, well-adjusted kids and happy parents. That's why the patriarchy is alive and well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymousquote wrote:

I'm a left wing and very educated but begrudgingly admit that my role as mother and homemaker has been exponentially better for my children and my husband's career. Which means better for my life but short term and long term. We could have switched roles but while I could have made what DH makes (which is a lot), he would have been mediocre at raising the kids and keeping our house running. American society is barely set up for 2 working parents, let alone 2 working parents who want to have high-achieving, well-adjusted kids and happy parents. That's why the patriarchy is alive and well.

This would be 100% true for me as well!

Anonymous wrote:I know we like to blame men, and that's definitely a big part of it, but I think we need to look at the issue other women bring to it as well. This forum is a good example to see how women play a part in contributing to the patriarchy. Shaming women for working, shaming women for putting themselves first, shaming women for staying at home, shame, shame, shame. Im real life, I've dealt with female managers trying to tear me down because the big boss has liked my ideas. I've seen people talk shit about a female boss for no reason other than she was a powerful female.

So yes, men play a huge role. But ignoring how we contribute to it too will never get the issue solved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Because some women uphold it. Particularly mothers of sons.

+1
And some women don't want to lose the social status attached to their rich white man. I've seen many SAHMs who love to brag about their husband's career as if it were their own accomplishment.

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Definitely women contribute to this problem. Particularly right wing uneducated Christian women who still believe their role is mother/homemaker, supporting their man.

I'm a left wing and very educated but begrudgingly admit that my role as mother and homemaker has been exponentially better for my children and my husband's career. Which means better for my life but short term and long term. We could have switched roles but while I could have made what DH makes (which is a lot), he would have been mediocre at raising the kids and keeping our house running. American society is barely set up for 2 working parents, let alone 2 working parents who want to have high-achieving, well-adjusted kids and happy parents. That's why the patriarchy is alive and well.

The idea that men are incapable and inefficient at household duties is myth. Of course your husband never cared about learning how to manage a household, he saw his mother do it all for him and then you happily stepped into the role to do the same. And then of course your daughters will do the same and leave the workforce while your sons never learn to do chores or manage a household.

household.

Ooh, I have an idea. Let's shame women for their decisions! That will improve things....