Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought Messianic Judaism was a front put up by evangelical Christians to convert Jews.

I would prefer either traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity over this purported middle road.

It is. Which is deeply offensive. Every one of those Jews for Jesus gives a middle finger to our (sometimes shared) ancestors who resisted conversion to keep Judaism alive in an unbroken chain across millenia.

And here we get to the nub of the matter. Xenophobia.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

NP. I'm curious, where and who are these courts? I can see a problem with a Messianic Jew showing up at a synagogue and proclaiming himself Jewish in front of the presiding rabbi. But control over the designation would seem to be in the hands of a group that calls itself Jewish, no? There's no Jewish pope, is there? Is there a structure like bishops?

Also, Jesus, his 12 disciples, Paul, and many others considered themselves Jewish even as they promulgated Jesus' message.

“ And they’d - particularly the half who have Jewish background - say it’s offensive for you to tell them they’re not “actually Jewish.” You’re probably some crazy liberal who’d call someone transphobic for refusing to go along with a man’s self-identification as a woman… but Messaniac Jews bother you?”

They can say it’s offensive until the cows come home - they are not Jewish; they are a Christian evangelical group founded to convert Jews. It’s been explained to you why that bothers actual Jews due to the history of forced conversions, successionism, and Christian anti-semitism. Christians claiming they have perfected Judaism is nothing new.

But like I said, Jews don’t threaten to murder Jews for converting, so I think you can live with the critique.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

This is by definition a Jewish movement.
They are not very open to Christian’s. The movement might include some Christians, but mostly Jewish. By Jewish I mean persons who have Jewish ancestry, bloodlines

It has very little to do with mainstream Christianity

Jews for Jesus is an evangelical movement to convert Jews to Christianity. There’s nothing non-mainstream about it. It’s Christian.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

This is by definition a Jewish movement.
They are not very open to Christian’s. The movement might include some Christians, but mostly Jewish. By Jewish I mean persons who have Jewish ancestry, bloodlines

It has very little to do with mainstream Christianity

Anonymous wrote:I thought Messianic Judaism was a front put up by evangelical Christians to convert Jews.

I would prefer either traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity over this purported middle road.

It is. Which is deeply offensive. Every one of those Jews for Jesus gives a middle finger to our (sometimes shared) ancestors who resisted conversion to keep Judaism alive in an unbroken chain across millenia.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s not true. They feel extra persecuted because they’re Christians who claim they’re Jewish and they don’t understand why Jews find that obnoxious and offensive.

This sounds anti-semitic. Who gets to decide who is Jewish?

Well... Jewish law has a lot of discussion about this actually. Jews get to decide who is Jewish, and Christian missionary groups that try to offer "Messianic Judaism" as a culturally sensitive way to become Christian are, in fact, antisemitic.

The Jews they are able to convert to this everything bagel-scented Christianity had weak Jewish affiliations to begin with or have psychological problems.

They see themselves as Jewish, so if you agree that Jews get to decide, then they’ve decided they’re Jews, right? You repeatedly trying to just write them off as psychologically disturbed says more about you than about them.

Jews have rules and courts where rules get decided. People don't get to just declare themselves Jewish. By definition, people who accept Jesus as the Messiah are Christians, and Christians are, by definition, not Jews.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]"Messianic Judaism is often presented as an ethnic church for Jews–somewhat like a Korean or Chinese church, but with outreach specific to Jews. However, most experts estimate that in most Messianic Jewish congregations only about half the members were born Jews."
More about Messianic "Judaism" here for anyone who wants to learn more: [url]https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/messianic-judaism/[/url][/quote]

Half is a lot. Jews are understandably touchy about conversion pressures, but the criticism of messianic Jews is just mean. They are a tiny group - who cares if you think it’s kooky. They’re not coming for you en masse. And if a Jew wants to join them, or outright convert to Christianity, that’s their choice.[/quote]

Unlike some religions, Jews don’t murder converts, so there’s that. [b]But at the end of the day it IS offensive for Christians to claim they are actually Jewish.[/b] [/quote]

And they’d - particularly the half who have Jewish background - say it’s offensive for you to tell them they’re not “actually Jewish.” You’re probably some crazy liberal who’d call someone transphobic for refusing to go along with a man’s self-identification as a woman… but Messaniac Jews bother you?

[quote][quote][quote]"Messianic Judaism is often presented as an ethnic church for Jews–somewhat like a Korean or Chinese church, but with outreach specific to Jews. However, most experts estimate that in most Messianic Jewish congregations only about half the members were born Jews."
More about Messianic "Judaism" here for anyone who wants to learn more: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/messianic-judaism/[/quote]

Half is a lot. Jews are understandably touchy about conversion pressures, but the criticism of messianic Jews is just mean. They are a tiny group - who cares if you think it’s kooky. They’re not coming for you en masse. And if a Jew wants to join them, or outright convert to Christianity, that’s their choice.[/quote]

Of course it's their choice if people want to join them. But I don't see why they should be exempt from criticism just because there's a small number of them. If they didn't proclaim that they really are Jews, and in fact better Jews than the rest of us, maybe we'd be happier ignoring them. Though I will say that — with the exception of this thread and others like it — most Jews do basically ignore them. I still don't believe anyone is going around suing or harassing Messianic Jews over anything.[/quote]

+1 Jews mostly don't think about them, unless they happen to come up in conversation and since there aren't that many of them, stumbling across one IRL is thankfully a rare occurrence.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]"Messianic Judaism is often presented as an ethnic church for Jews–somewhat like a Korean or Chinese church, but with outreach specific to Jews. However, most experts estimate that in most Messianic Jewish congregations only about half the members were born Jews."
More about Messianic "Judaism" here for anyone who wants to learn more: [url]https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/messianic-judaism/[/url][/quote]

Half is a lot. Jews are understandably touchy about conversion pressures, but the criticism of messianic Jews is just mean. They are a tiny group - who cares if you think it’s kooky. They’re not coming for you en masse. And if a Jew wants to join them, or outright convert to Christianity, that’s their choice.[/quote]

Of course it's their choice if people want to join them. But I don't see why they should be exempt from criticism just because there's a small number of them. If they didn't proclaim that they really are Jews, and in fact better Jews than the rest of us, maybe we'd be happier ignoring them. Though I will say that — with the exception of this thread and others like it — most Jews do basically ignore them. I still don't believe anyone is going around suing or harassing Messianic Jews over anything.

Anonymous wrote:A woman in my daughter's Girl Scout leadership has mentioned that she's a Messianic Jew but that her family hasn't been able to find a local congregation because anyone who starts one up gets sued by Jewish groups. Just wondering if this is true. What would the basis for the lawsuit be?

I'm not sure on what basis anyone would have grounds to sue them just for being Messianic. Maybe it's a problem with zoning restrictions or something? Jewish groups find Messianics annoying/harmful, but not really worth the time to take them to court.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]"Messianic Judaism is often presented as an ethnic church for Jews–somewhat like a Korean or Chinese church, but with outreach specific to Jews. However, most experts estimate that in most Messianic Jewish congregations only about half the members were born Jews."
More about Messianic "Judaism" here for anyone who wants to learn more: [url]https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/messianic-judaism/[/url][/quote]

Half is a lot. Jews are understandably touchy about conversion pressures, but the criticism of messianic Jews is just mean. They are a tiny group - who cares if you think it’s kooky. They’re not coming for you en masse. And if a Jew wants to join them, or outright convert to Christianity, that’s their choice.[/quote]
The criticism of Messianic Jews is based on the fact that they call themselves Jews when they are practicing Christianity with Jewish trappings. They are dishonest and it's not "mean" to call that out. I don't particularly care if a Jew wants to convert to Christianity, but please don't pretend to still be practicing Judaism.

I haven't met very many Messianic Jews (thankfully), but the ones I [i]have[/i] met (whether born Jewish or not) have presented themselves as Jews, only to later start talking about Jesus. For example, a friend of mine unknowingly invited a Messianic "Jew" to Shabbat dinner and at dinner he started talking to her and her other guests about "Yeshua" (Jesus) at which time she pointedly asked him to leave.

I used to attend a Torah Study class where one of the regular participants was Messianic. He was at least up front about the fact that he was born and raised Christian and had migrated to Messianic Judaism for the "authenticity" of the Old Testament. I was more or less fine with him. He never pretended to be Jewish. And aside from the fact that he went to a Messianic Jewish congregation, he never described himself as a Messianic Jew. I think he used the phrase "Old Testament Christian" or something along those lines.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]"Messianic Judaism is often presented as an ethnic church for Jews–somewhat like a Korean or Chinese church, but with outreach specific to Jews. However, most experts estimate that in most Messianic Jewish congregations only about half the members were born Jews."
More about Messianic "Judaism" here for anyone who wants to learn more: [url]https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/messianic-judaism/[/url][/quote]

Half is a lot. Jews are understandably touchy about conversion pressures, but the criticism of messianic Jews is just mean. They are a tiny group - who cares if you think it’s kooky. They’re not coming for you en masse. And if a Jew wants to join them, or outright convert to Christianity, that’s their choice.[/quote]

Unlike some religions, Jews don’t murder converts, so there’s that. But at the end of the day it IS offensive for Christians to claim they are actually Jewish.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]"Messianic Judaism is often presented as an ethnic church for Jews–somewhat like a Korean or Chinese church, but with outreach specific to Jews. However, most experts estimate that in most Messianic Jewish congregations only about half the members were born Jews."
More about Messianic "Judaism" here for anyone who wants to learn more: [url]https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/messianic-judaism/[/url][/quote]

Half is a lot. Jews are understandably touchy about conversion pressures, but the criticism of messianic Jews is just mean. They are a tiny group - who cares if you think it’s kooky. They’re not coming for you en masse. And if a Jew wants to join them, or outright convert to Christianity, that’s their choice.[/quote]

What a weird response. How is it “mean” to say they aren’t Jews and should stop telling other Jews to be more like them. If they wanted to call themselves messianic Christians then Jews wouldn’t care but you can’t decide to be offensive and then say it’s mean to point out that you are being offensive.

[quote=Anonymous]"Messianic Judaism is often presented as an ethnic church for Jews–somewhat like a Korean or Chinese church, but with outreach specific to Jews. However, most experts estimate that in most Messianic Jewish congregations only about half the members were born Jews."
More about Messianic "Judaism" here for anyone who wants to learn more: [url]https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/messianic-judaism/[/url][/quote]

Half is a lot. Jews are understandably touchy about conversion pressures, but the criticism of messianic Jews is just mean. They are a tiny group - who cares if you think it’s kooky. They’re not coming for you en masse. And if a Jew wants to join them, or outright convert to Christianity, that’s their choice.