Anonymous wrote:the ED agreement is not an actual contract and has no backlash if broken. It's a shitty thing to do ethically except for financial reasons, but I give two shits about colleges who employ ED and have a dozen kids back out.

Ron Lieber has asked people/high schools several times in print and in media to come forward with even one black ball story and has never gotten even one legit one.

It's not just the colleges you are affecting though--it's other students.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just another incidence of selfish, dishonest people.

Lie about race, lie about creating fake non-profits and activities, get someone else to write the essay, lie about intended major, etc, etc. it hues on and on for people that suck and have no qualms about being dishonest.

And usually hurts subsequent students at the dishonest students high school. Which is why most ethical college counselor s won’t play along.

NP. Listen the whole idea of ED is on shaky ethical ground, so let’s not act like colleges are the moral actors and students are the wrong ones. Colleges are businesses and families need to watch out for themselves

+1. I had my kid apply ED to the college where it would matter the most keep RD applications in. He got into a better college in RD and took it. The high school threatened to withhold my kid’s transcript because we waited until May to decline. But, they folded like a paper house in a hurricane once my lawyer got involved. In return, we agreed not to tell people what had happened. But, it’s not like my kid getting in ED to one school and attending a better one was a huge secret. Anyone could do that math. And his peers who hadn’t been as savvy had “suspicions” and were unhappy. Three week from graduation, after which everyone moved on. My kid just moved on to a better college. Never got pushback from the ED school. Apparently a couple kids called the RD school to tattle. But, they looked like bitter rejects from that college— which they were. We never got pushback. I think the HS dealt with them/ alerted him to the presence of out attorney. .

Colleges, selective HSs, other parents and students— everyone is gaming the system for an edge— and counting on “ethics” and “we’ll hurt the kids behind you” to keep the system running. As if the kids ahead of mine would say, “could have gone to an Ivy, but didn’t want to hurt the (then) juniors”. No one does that IRL. Parents talk a big ethical game unless/until they are in a position to trade up after ED. In which case they always do.

If you have a decent lawyer and are willing to back up threats, you can absolutely decline your ED school in May for a better RD. The dirty little secret is that ED is an very anti-competitive practice. Colleges and HSs and college counselors may threaten. But, they won’t follow through if you push it. No one wants that lawsuit, because it has merit. There is a good chance that if it were ever fully litigated, ED would be a thing of the past/ would be struck down. And selective colleges and selective HSs and college counselors need ED, which benefit affluent kids and families and the selective colleges/HSs and college counselors that serve them. They can’t risk that lawsuit going sideways.

IME, put you kids RD applications in before ED decisions, and then just don’t withdraw them. Never hurts to see what all the choices are. And if your kid has a substantially better offer in RD, go for it and don’t let HSs, college counselors and selective colleges bully you into accepting second best. This is the real world and your lawyer will win this fight. And if you have a Stanford (RD) vs WashU or Chicago (ED1) face off, hire the lawyer and send your kid to Stanford.

the ED agreement is not an actual contract and has no backlash if broken. It's a shitty thing to do ethically except for financial reasons, but I give two shits about colleges who employ ED and have a dozen kids back out.

Ron Lieber has asked people/high schools several times in print and in media to come forward with even one black ball story and has never gotten even one legit one.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just another incidence of selfish, dishonest people.

Lie about race, lie about creating fake non-profits and activities, get someone else to write the essay, lie about intended major, etc, etc. it hues on and on for people that suck and have no qualms about being dishonest.

And usually hurts subsequent students at the dishonest students high school. Which is why most ethical college counselor s won’t play along.

+1

Your ethical HS counselor simply will not release your transcript to any other schools until you demonstrate you ethically dropped your ED (financial reasons are the only real ethical reason). Otherwise they are screwing over the next 5+ years of students applying from the dishonest kid's HS.

You likely wouldn't receive your ED acceptance until 12/15. In the meantime, you of course could have applied to many, many EA schools (which you are free to do under ED) as well as UC schools. Also, if you are really paranoid, you could make sure to apply to RD schools by 12/15.

So, there would not be any factual basis for your HS not to release your transcript.

Anonymous wrote:The $$$$$ college (where DS applied ED1) said and wrote many many times that if you can't afford it you are not required to accept. I have to assume that checking "NO" to the question whether you're applying for financial aid is a worth something during the admissions decision process.

I thought ED fell out of favor a few years ago as colleges couldn't deny the clear advantage to the wealthy. But now I see it's not slowed at all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes I know someone who was accepted ED and didn’t withdraw other applications. When the other acceptances kept coming in including one to a much better school (top 20 private) they went with it. Absolutely no repercussions.

I also know of someone who kept in all of their applications after accepting an ED2 offer (including the ED1 school that had deferred them). AT RD round, they were accepted to the ED1 deferral school - plus another T25 school.

They went back to the ED2 school to say they felt there was a stronger religious community at the ED1 school. The ED2 school allowed it. I don't know what happened with the HS relationship with the ED2 school though - I didn't ask.

This family knew better - they were fully aware that they were supposed to withdraw but they took a chance and took advantage of the system. There was nothing lacking in the community at the ED2 school - the overall percentage of her group was smaller but it isn't tiny - and the school itself is more diverse and celebrates diversity.

She was lucky that school was generous with her. I wish there was a more formal process where schools communicate and don't allow this to happen (I mean - it's the common app - so how hard can it be). This had nothing to do with finances.

I was secretly wishing someone would "out" them to the school they attended.

You want businesses to collude about not competing for certain customers. The system would be easy to create, defending it would be impossible

No - I want the colleges to mark ED applicants who have accepted offers to college board and mark their remaining applications as being no longer valid. Otherwise this is all BS.

That said - I don't think ED is a fair/equitable process. It clearly disadvantages families who need to shop for aid. So maybe change the system to only have EA - or SCEA.

It is BS because the contracts are likely unenforceable. Even if you could get around being a cartel under federal antitrust, good luck getting around state consumer law.

Anonymous wrote:From the actual ED application I signed, DS signed, and HS counselor signed Nov 1 (I added the financial out language):

From the National Association for College Admission Counseling Statement of Principles of Good Practice:
“Early Decision (ED) is the application process in which students make a commitment to a first-choice institution where, if admitted, they definitely will enroll. While pursuing admission under an Early Decision plan, students may apply to other institutions, but may have only one Early Decision application pending at any time. Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the Early Decision commitment. The institution must notify the applicant of the decision within a reasonable and clearly stated period of time after the Early Decision deadline. Usually, a nonrefundable deposit must be made well in advance of May 1. The institution will respond to an application for financial aid at or near the time of an offer of admission. Institutions with Early Decision plans may restrict students from applying to other early plans. Institutions will clearly articulate their specific policies in their Early Decision agreement.”
If you are accepted under an Early Decision plan, you must promptly withdraw the applications submitted to other colleges and universities and make no additional applications to any other university in any country. If you are an Early Decision candidate and are seeking financial aid, you need not withdraw other applications until you have received notification about financial aid from the admitting Early Decision institution.

The scenarios I care about have nothing to do with financial aid. It's people taking advantage of the system. The family did not apply for aid and received no merit aid - anywhere.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes I know someone who was accepted ED and didn’t withdraw other applications. When the other acceptances kept coming in including one to a much better school (top 20 private) they went with it. Absolutely no repercussions.

I also know of someone who kept in all of their applications after accepting an ED2 offer (including the ED1 school that had deferred them). AT RD round, they were accepted to the ED1 deferral school - plus another T25 school.

They went back to the ED2 school to say they felt there was a stronger religious community at the ED1 school. The ED2 school allowed it. I don't know what happened with the HS relationship with the ED2 school though - I didn't ask.

This family knew better - they were fully aware that they were supposed to withdraw but they took a chance and took advantage of the system. There was nothing lacking in the community at the ED2 school - the overall percentage of her group was smaller but it isn't tiny - and the school itself is more diverse and celebrates diversity.

She was lucky that school was generous with her. I wish there was a more formal process where schools communicate and don't allow this to happen (I mean - it's the common app - so how hard can it be). This had nothing to do with finances.

I was secretly wishing someone would "out" them to the school they attended.

You want businesses to collude about not competing for certain customers. The system would be easy to create, defending it would be impossible

No - I want the colleges to mark ED applicants who have accepted offers to college board and mark their remaining applications as being no longer valid. Otherwise this is all BS.

That said - I don't think ED is a fair/equitable process. It clearly disadvantages families who need to shop for aid. So maybe change the system to only have EA - or SCEA.

The $$$$$ college (where DS applied ED1) said and wrote many many times that if you can't afford it you are not required to accept. I have to assume that checking "NO" to the question whether you're applying for financial aid is a worth something during the admissions decision process.

From the actual ED application I signed, DS signed, and HS counselor signed Nov 1 (I added the financial out language):

From the National Association for College Admission Counseling Statement of Principles of Good Practice:
“Early Decision (ED) is the application process in which students make a commitment to a first-choice institution where, if admitted, they definitely will enroll. While pursuing admission under an Early Decision plan, students may apply to other institutions, but may have only one Early Decision application pending at any time. Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the Early Decision commitment. The institution must notify the applicant of the decision within a reasonable and clearly stated period of time after the Early Decision deadline. Usually, a nonrefundable deposit must be made well in advance of May 1. The institution will respond to an application for financial aid at or near the time of an offer of admission. Institutions with Early Decision plans may restrict students from applying to other early plans. Institutions will clearly articulate their specific policies in their Early Decision agreement.”
If you are accepted under an Early Decision plan, you must promptly withdraw the applications submitted to other colleges and universities and make no additional applications to any other university in any country. If you are an Early Decision candidate and are seeking financial aid, you need not withdraw other applications until you have received notification about financial aid from the admitting Early Decision institution.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes I know someone who was accepted ED and didn’t withdraw other applications. When the other acceptances kept coming in including one to a much better school (top 20 private) they went with it. Absolutely no repercussions.

I also know of someone who kept in all of their applications after accepting an ED2 offer (including the ED1 school that had deferred them). AT RD round, they were accepted to the ED1 deferral school - plus another T25 school.

They went back to the ED2 school to say they felt there was a stronger religious community at the ED1 school. The ED2 school allowed it. I don't know what happened with the HS relationship with the ED2 school though - I didn't ask.

This family knew better - they were fully aware that they were supposed to withdraw but they took a chance and took advantage of the system. There was nothing lacking in the community at the ED2 school - the overall percentage of her group was smaller but it isn't tiny - and the school itself is more diverse and celebrates diversity.

She was lucky that school was generous with her. I wish there was a more formal process where schools communicate and don't allow this to happen (I mean - it's the common app - so how hard can it be). This had nothing to do with finances.

I was secretly wishing someone would "out" them to the school they attended.

You want businesses to collude about not competing for certain customers. The system would be easy to create, defending it would be impossible

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just another incidence of selfish, dishonest people.

Lie about race, lie about creating fake non-profits and activities, get someone else to write the essay, lie about intended major, etc, etc. it hues on and on for people that suck and have no qualms about being dishonest.

And usually hurts subsequent students at the dishonest students high school. Which is why most ethical college counselor s won’t play along.

Public school counselors will send transcripts where students request they be sent

The school my DS applied to ED 2 years ago made it clear (repeatedly) that it was only binding if we could afford it. This was not dependent on a difference with the NPC. It was just our own judgment.

The school my DD recently applied to ED seemed to suggest that we needed to figure out whether we could afford it in advance.

Anonymous wrote:Yes I know someone who was accepted ED and didn’t withdraw other applications. When the other acceptances kept coming in including one to a much better school (top 20 private) they went with it. Absolutely no repercussions.

I also know of someone who kept in all of their applications after accepting an ED2 offer (including the ED1 school that had deferred them). AT RD round, they were accepted to the ED1 deferral school - plus another T25 school.

They went back to the ED2 school to say they felt there was a stronger religious community at the ED1 school. The ED2 school allowed it. I don't know what happened with the HS relationship with the ED2 school though - I didn't ask.

This family knew better - they were fully aware that they were supposed to withdraw but they took a chance and took advantage of the system. There was nothing lacking in the community at the ED2 school - the overall percentage of her group was smaller but it isn't tiny - and the school itself is more diverse and celebrates diversity.

She was lucky that school was generous with her. I wish there was a more formal process where schools communicate and don't allow this to happen (I mean - it's the common app - so how hard can it be). This had nothing to do with finances.

I was secretly wishing someone would "out" them to the school they attended.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just another incidence of selfish, dishonest people.

Lie about race, lie about creating fake non-profits and activities, get someone else to write the essay, lie about intended major, etc, etc. it hues on and on for people that suck and have no qualms about being dishonest.

And usually hurts subsequent students at the dishonest students high school. Which is why most ethical college counselor s won’t play along.

+1

Your ethical HS counselor simply will not release your transcript to any other schools until you demonstrate you ethically dropped your ED (financial reasons are the only real ethical reason). Otherwise they are screwing over the next 5+ years of students applying from the dishonest kid's HS.