Anonymous wrote:The longer I spent immersed in the study of classical antiquity, the more alien and unsettling I came to find it. The values of Leonidas, whose people had practised a peculiarly murderous form of eugenics, and trained their young to kill uppity Untermenschen by night, were nothing that I recognised as my own; nor were those of Caesar, who was reported to have killed a million Gauls and enslaved a million more. It was not just the extremes of callousness that I came to find shocking, but the lack of a sense that the poor or the weak might have any intrinsic value. As such, the founding conviction of the Enlightenment – that it owed nothing to the faith into which most of its greatest figures had been born – increasingly came to seem to me unsustainable....

Familiarity with the biblical narrative of the Crucifixion has dulled our sense of just how completely novel a deity Christ was. In the ancient world, it was the role of gods who laid claim to ruling the universe to uphold its order by inflicting punishment – not to suffer it themselves.

Today, even as belief in God fades across the West, the countries that were once collectively known as Christendom continue to bear the stamp of the two-millennia-old revolution that Christianity represents. It is the principal reason why, by and large, most of us who live in post-Christian societies still take for granted that it is nobler to suffer than to inflict suffering. It is why we generally assume that every human life is of equal value. In my morals and ethics, I have learned to accept that I am not Greek or Roman at all, but thoroughly and proudly Christian.
When I speak to atheists who say that morals such as helping the weak are “obvious,” I know they’re wrong about this. If they were so obvious to everyone, Western civilization would not be as unique in history as it is. They are obvious to us because we’re a product of our culture, and our culture is a product of Christianity, and Christianity is the worship of Jesus.


Tom Holland: Why I was wrong about Christianity

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2016/09/tom-holland-why-i-was-wrong-about-christianity

DP. Holland has an interesting-sounding book on these themes, “Dominion.” I’ve been meaning to read it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Knowing that we have free will. If humans didn’t have free will, we’d be gods play toys. God gave us free will. Most people are good. Some are bad beyond our imaginations. Like many religions believe, there will be a reconciliation one day. What we’re seeing in the news isn’t the end
But yea the news is hard

I used to think most people were good. Recently life has shown me something else. I seem to be surrounded by not as good/honest people. If this is testing me it's next level insanity.

Np. I find this interesting. Why would you ever think most people are good? People are inherently self centered which leads to all kinds of bad behavior. It is only through religion that people have any moral code at all.

NP, and yikes. Morality is intrinsic for most people. If your morals would disappear without religion to rein it in, there’s something wrong with you.

Oh dear. You’re one of those parents. “My child can do no wrong because he just IS. He was born perfect!”

Lol…what? No, what I’m saying is that if you don’t have an internal moral compass, and you need religion to know right from wrong…you might be a psychopath.

lol right back. Where do you believe that one gets this “internal” moral compass from? Judging by most 4 years olds, it doesn’t exist.

Do you not have an innate sense of right and wrong?

Sure, as a socialized adult I do. But only because I was taught right from wrong by my parents, school, community, etc. Many do not. If you believe it’s an “innate sense” that people are born with, you’re an utter fool.

I feel sorry for you that you apparently need religion to tell you right from wrong. Most people know the difference in their hearts. I wonder what your life must be like.

“Most people know the difference in their hearts” is one of the singularly stupidest statements I have ever read on DCUM, and that is saying something.

I am dumbfounded that a person could reach adulthood with this point of view.

+1 this is a ridiculous statement, pp cannot be an adult. If they are, they are either unserious or a liar.

What do you mean?

If you are referring to the idea of "knowing" something "in your heart", which is impossible, I completely agree, but I assume the person was being metaphorical with reference to the heart, which only pumps blood.

If you are referring to the idea that you can't have morality without religion, well, that is demonstrably untrue, unless you take a fully presuppositional position.

And where do you think that all of the conventions that frame morality come from, if not from God?

For example, do not commit murder is specifically given to us in the Ten Commandments. Virtually every tenant that frames society was first stated by God.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think of how much evil is due to religious beliefs. I think the higher you fly your religious flag the more you need to hide.
Organized religion is the root of a lot of evil.

+1million. And maybe without people living for an "afterlife" or some other religious dogma, we would have evolved to care more about each other and our survival as a species. Either way....religion is definitely the root of a lot of evil. sometimes it is subtle and insidious in the ways it changes people and their behavior here in the one life we KNOW we have.

Imagine

“Imagine no possessions / I wonder if you can / No need for greed or hunger / A brotherhood of man.”


Yoko Ono has a net worth of $600-$700 million dollars.

John Lennon was one of the main songwriters in The Beatles and had a net worth of $620 million at the time of his death.

John Lennon and Yoko Ono bought a Palm Beach summer retreat for $725,000 just before his murder. It's just sold for $36 million — take a look inside.


"I really don't want to leave Palm Beach," Lennon told Palm Beach Daily News in 1974. "I'd like to own a piece of it.“

https://www.businessinsider.com/john-lennon-yoko-ono-palm-beach-home-for-sale-photos-2020-6?amp

The no possessions line was meant for other people, because John Lennon certainly had millions of dollars of possessions, and Yoko Ono continues to rake in cash.

Yoko Ono, as the executor and trustee of Lennon’s estate. This gives Yoko vast control over John's assets, including many of his song rights.


In an interview with The Telegraph in 1998, Julian said of his father: “Dad could talk about peace and love out loud to the world but he could never show it to the people who supposedly meant the most to him: his wife and son.



Imagine is the atheist anthem because it says imagine no religion, no heaven or hell, etc. But it’s basically the most hypocritical song ever written.

I pray for those doing evil. I remind myself that they are lost and that I'm commanded to pray for them. It helps to relieve much of the distress I feel when looking at the state of the world. Given the propaganda coming from every side of these world conflicts, I'm not even always sure who the "good guys" are. I just pray for everyone on both sides. On my knees. Every morning.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think of how much evil is due to religious beliefs. I think the higher you fly your religious flag the more you need to hide.
Organized religion is the root of a lot of evil.

+1million. And maybe without people living for an "afterlife" or some other religious dogma, we would have evolved to care more about each other and our survival as a species. Either way....religion is definitely the root of a lot of evil. sometimes it is subtle and insidious in the ways it changes people and their behavior here in the one life we KNOW we have.

Imagine

Imagine no possessions- do you have any possessions?

Are you typing your comments on a computer? You have a possession.

Yoko Ono sure fought hard in court for the possessions of John Lennon. hmmmm.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Knowing that we have free will. If humans didn’t have free will, we’d be gods play toys. God gave us free will. Most people are good. Some are bad beyond our imaginations. Like many religions believe, there will be a reconciliation one day. What we’re seeing in the news isn’t the end
But yea the news is hard

I used to think most people were good. Recently life has shown me something else. I seem to be surrounded by not as good/honest people. If this is testing me it's next level insanity.

Np. I find this interesting. Why would you ever think most people are good? People are inherently self centered which leads to all kinds of bad behavior. It is only through religion that people have any moral code at all.

NP, and yikes. Morality is intrinsic for most people. If your morals would disappear without religion to rein it in, there’s something wrong with you.

Oh dear. You’re one of those parents. “My child can do no wrong because he just IS. He was born perfect!”

Lol…what? No, what I’m saying is that if you don’t have an internal moral compass, and you need religion to know right from wrong…you might be a psychopath.

lol right back. Where do you believe that one gets this “internal” moral compass from? Judging by most 4 years olds, it doesn’t exist.

Do you not have an innate sense of right and wrong?

Sure, as a socialized adult I do. But only because I was taught right from wrong by my parents, school, community, etc. Many do not. If you believe it’s an “innate sense” that people are born with, you’re an utter fool.

I feel sorry for you that you apparently need religion to tell you right from wrong. Most people know the difference in their hearts. I wonder what your life must be like.

“Most people know the difference in their hearts” is one of the singularly stupidest statements I have ever read on DCUM, and that is saying something.

I am dumbfounded that a person could reach adulthood with this point of view.

+1 this is a ridiculous statement, pp cannot be an adult. If they are, they are either unserious or a liar.

What do you mean?

If you are referring to the idea of "knowing" something "in your heart", which is impossible, I completely agree, but I assume the person was being metaphorical with reference to the heart, which only pumps blood.

If you are referring to the idea that you can't have morality without religion, well, that is demonstrably untrue, unless you take a fully presuppositional position.

According to the Philanthropy Roundtable, the religiously observant are almost twice as likely to volunteer when compared to the non-observant, and donate more than twice as much to charitable causes. Much to the ACLU’s chagrin, about 1 in 7 U.S. hospital beds are in a Catholic facility. About 1.7 million American children are educated in Catholic schools, saving taxpayers more than $20 billion annually. The Knights of Columbus annually contributes almost $200 million and about 75 million service hours to charitable causes. Can you name a single American atheist organization that rivals that?

The longer I spent immersed in the study of classical antiquity, the more alien and unsettling I came to find it. The values of Leonidas, whose people had practised a peculiarly murderous form of eugenics, and trained their young to kill uppity Untermenschen by night, were nothing that I recognised as my own; nor were those of Caesar, who was reported to have killed a million Gauls and enslaved a million more. It was not just the extremes of callousness that I came to find shocking, but the lack of a sense that the poor or the weak might have any intrinsic value. As such, the founding conviction of the Enlightenment – that it owed nothing to the faith into which most of its greatest figures had been born – increasingly came to seem to me unsustainable....

Familiarity with the biblical narrative of the Crucifixion has dulled our sense of just how completely novel a deity Christ was. In the ancient world, it was the role of gods who laid claim to ruling the universe to uphold its order by inflicting punishment – not to suffer it themselves.

Today, even as belief in God fades across the West, the countries that were once collectively known as Christendom continue to bear the stamp of the two-millennia-old revolution that Christianity represents. It is the principal reason why, by and large, most of us who live in post-Christian societies still take for granted that it is nobler to suffer than to inflict suffering. It is why we generally assume that every human life is of equal value. In my morals and ethics, I have learned to accept that I am not Greek or Roman at all, but thoroughly and proudly Christian.
When I speak to atheists who say that morals such as helping the weak are “obvious,” I know they’re wrong about this. If they were so obvious to everyone, Western civilization would not be as unique in history as it is. They are obvious to us because we’re a product of our culture, and our culture is a product of Christianity, and Christianity is the worship of Jesus.


Tom Holland: Why I was wrong about Christianity

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/religion/2016/09/tom-holland-why-i-was-wrong-about-christianity

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Knowing that we have free will. If humans didn’t have free will, we’d be gods play toys. God gave us free will. Most people are good. Some are bad beyond our imaginations. Like many religions believe, there will be a reconciliation one day. What we’re seeing in the news isn’t the end
But yea the news is hard

I used to think most people were good. Recently life has shown me something else. I seem to be surrounded by not as good/honest people. If this is testing me it's next level insanity.

Np. I find this interesting. Why would you ever think most people are good? People are inherently self centered which leads to all kinds of bad behavior. It is only through religion that people have any moral code at all.

NP, and yikes. Morality is intrinsic for most people. If your morals would disappear without religion to rein it in, there’s something wrong with you.

Oh dear. You’re one of those parents. “My child can do no wrong because he just IS. He was born perfect!”

Lol…what? No, what I’m saying is that if you don’t have an internal moral compass, and you need religion to know right from wrong…you might be a psychopath.

lol right back. Where do you believe that one gets this “internal” moral compass from? Judging by most 4 years olds, it doesn’t exist.

Do you not have an innate sense of right and wrong?

Sure, as a socialized adult I do. But only because I was taught right from wrong by my parents, school, community, etc. Many do not. If you believe it’s an “innate sense” that people are born with, you’re an utter fool.

I feel sorry for you that you apparently need religion to tell you right from wrong. Most people know the difference in their hearts. I wonder what your life must be like.

“Most people know the difference in their hearts” is one of the singularly stupidest statements I have ever read on DCUM, and that is saying something.

I am dumbfounded that a person could reach adulthood with this point of view.

+1 this is a ridiculous statement, pp cannot be an adult. If they are, they are either unserious or a liar.

What do you mean?

If you are referring to the idea of "knowing" something "in your heart", which is impossible, I completely agree, but I assume the person was being metaphorical with reference to the heart, which only pumps blood.

If you are referring to the idea that you can't have morality without religion, well, that is demonstrably untrue, unless you take a fully presuppositional position.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Knowing that we have free will. If humans didn’t have free will, we’d be gods play toys. God gave us free will. Most people are good. Some are bad beyond our imaginations. Like many religions believe, there will be a reconciliation one day. What we’re seeing in the news isn’t the end
But yea the news is hard

I used to think most people were good. Recently life has shown me something else. I seem to be surrounded by not as good/honest people. If this is testing me it's next level insanity.

Np. I find this interesting. Why would you ever think most people are good? People are inherently self centered which leads to all kinds of bad behavior. It is only through religion that people have any moral code at all.

NP, and yikes. Morality is intrinsic for most people. If your morals would disappear without religion to rein it in, there’s something wrong with you.

Oh dear. You’re one of those parents. “My child can do no wrong because he just IS. He was born perfect!”

Lol…what? No, what I’m saying is that if you don’t have an internal moral compass, and you need religion to know right from wrong…you might be a psychopath.

lol right back. Where do you believe that one gets this “internal” moral compass from? Judging by most 4 years olds, it doesn’t exist.

Do you not have an innate sense of right and wrong?

Sure, as a socialized adult I do. But only because I was taught right from wrong by my parents, school, community, etc. Many do not. If you believe it’s an “innate sense” that people are born with, you’re an utter fool.

I feel sorry for you that you apparently need religion to tell you right from wrong. Most people know the difference in their hearts. I wonder what your life must be like.

“Most people know the difference in their hearts” is one of the singularly stupidest statements I have ever read on DCUM, and that is saying something.

I am dumbfounded that a person could reach adulthood with this point of view.

+1 this is a ridiculous statement, pp cannot be an adult. If they are, they are either unserious or a liar.

Anonymous wrote:Organized religion route of all evil.

We can see this by what us happening in the US

False prophets Bible thumping dummies following a fat orange criminal really great Christians

An even more inclusive 2016 study by Georgetown University economist Brian Grim calculated the economic value of all U.S. religious activity. Its midrange estimate was that religion annually contributes $1.2 trillion of socioeconomic value to the U.S. economy. This estimate includes not only the fair market value of activity connected to churches (like $91 billion of religious schooling and daycare), and by non-church religious institutions (faith-based charities, hospitals, and colleges), but also activity by faith-related commercial organizations. That $1.2 trillion is more than the combined revenue of America’s ten biggest tech giants. It is bigger than the total economy of all but 14 entire nations.

In study after study, religious practice is the behavioral variable with the strongest and most consistent association with generous giving. And people with religious motivations don’t give just to faith-based causes—they are also much likelier to give to secular causes than the nonreligious. Two thirds of people who worship at least twice a month give to secular causes, compared to less than half of non-attenders, and the average secular gift by a church attender is 20 percent bigger.

These giving levels vary by particular faith. Mormons are the most generous Americans, both by participation level and by size of gifts. Evangelical Christians are next. Then come mainline Protestants. Catholics lag both. Jews give high dollar amounts on average, because they have high earnings, while trailing Protestant givers in donations as a share of income. (See “Who Gives Most to Charity?” in the Almanac of American Philanthropy.)

Measured by how much they share out of what they have available, the most generous Americans are not generally those in high-income, urban, liberal states like California or Massachusetts. Rather, people living in states that are more rural, conservative, religious, and moderate in income are our most generous givers.

https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/who-gives-most-to-charity/

Regional results are above. Below are the top and bottom ten states for giving, according to the Chronicle calculations. Once again, the biggest givers are found to be concentrated in “Bible Belt” states in the South or where Mormons make up a large portion of the population.
On the other hand, scant-giving households are heavily concentrated in relatively wealthy and secular New England.

American charity is based on religion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Knowing that we have free will. If humans didn’t have free will, we’d be gods play toys. God gave us free will. Most people are good. Some are bad beyond our imaginations. Like many religions believe, there will be a reconciliation one day. What we’re seeing in the news isn’t the end
But yea the news is hard

I used to think most people were good. Recently life has shown me something else. I seem to be surrounded by not as good/honest people. If this is testing me it's next level insanity.

Np. I find this interesting. Why would you ever think most people are good? People are inherently self centered which leads to all kinds of bad behavior. It is only through religion that people have any moral code at all.

NP, and yikes. Morality is intrinsic for most people. If your morals would disappear without religion to rein it in, there’s something wrong with you.

Oh dear. You’re one of those parents. “My child can do no wrong because he just IS. He was born perfect!”

Lol…what? No, what I’m saying is that if you don’t have an internal moral compass, and you need religion to know right from wrong…you might be a psychopath.

lol right back. Where do you believe that one gets this “internal” moral compass from? Judging by most 4 years olds, it doesn’t exist.

Do you not have an innate sense of right and wrong?

No one have it. It is tought (sometimes by example, sometimes as part of early childhood education). Why do you think young children (as old as 5 yo) saying that all that they want to do is to kill Jews when they grow up? Where is their innate compass of right and wrong?

.

Bull. The 5 year olds (as you put it) wouldn't think to kill "jews", if there was no such thing, an we were all just "humans". and the ones that are saying they want to "kill jews" are probably doing that because their equally religious parents on the OTHER side, are teaching them that as part of THEIR religion/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think of how much evil is due to religious beliefs. I think the higher you fly your religious flag the more you need to hide.
Organized religion is the root of a lot of evil.

+1million. And maybe without people living for an "afterlife" or some other religious dogma, we would have evolved to care more about each other and our survival as a species. Either way....religion is definitely the root of a lot of evil. sometimes it is subtle and insidious in the ways it changes people and their behavior here in the one life we KNOW we have.

Imagine

AMEN...(not a religious amen....amen to the sentiment)

Anonymous wrote:It's getting to the point where I actually get excited when someone is even just pleasant to me I'm used to the nasty rudeness it's pretty much all I know now. It's really sad.

Is nasty rudeness the same as evil, though?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Knowing that we have free will. If humans didn’t have free will, we’d be gods play toys. God gave us free will. Most people are good. Some are bad beyond our imaginations. Like many religions believe, there will be a reconciliation one day. What we’re seeing in the news isn’t the end
But yea the news is hard

I used to think most people were good. Recently life has shown me something else. I seem to be surrounded by not as good/honest people. If this is testing me it's next level insanity.

Np. I find this interesting. Why would you ever think most people are good? People are inherently self centered which leads to all kinds of bad behavior. It is only through religion that people have any moral code at all.

NP, and yikes. Morality is intrinsic for most people. If your morals would disappear without religion to rein it in, there’s something wrong with you.

Oh dear. You’re one of those parents. “My child can do no wrong because he just IS. He was born perfect!”

Lol…what? No, what I’m saying is that if you don’t have an internal moral compass, and you need religion to know right from wrong…you might be a psychopath.

lol right back. Where do you believe that one gets this “internal” moral compass from? Judging by most 4 years olds, it doesn’t exist.

Do you not have an innate sense of right and wrong?

Sure, as a socialized adult I do. But only because I was taught right from wrong by my parents, school, community, etc. Many do not. If you believe it’s an “innate sense” that people are born with, you’re an utter fool.

I feel sorry for you that you apparently need religion to tell you right from wrong. Most people know the difference in their hearts. I wonder what your life must be like.

“Most people know the difference in their hearts” is one of the singularly stupidest statements I have ever read on DCUM, and that is saying something.

I am dumbfounded that a person could reach adulthood with this point of view.

Do you consider yourself to be a Christian?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Knowing that we have free will. If humans didn’t have free will, we’d be gods play toys. God gave us free will. Most people are good. Some are bad beyond our imaginations. Like many religions believe, there will be a reconciliation one day. What we’re seeing in the news isn’t the end
But yea the news is hard

I used to think most people were good. Recently life has shown me something else. I seem to be surrounded by not as good/honest people. If this is testing me it's next level insanity.

Np. I find this interesting. Why would you ever think most people are good? People are inherently self centered which leads to all kinds of bad behavior. It is only through religion that people have any moral code at all.

NP, and yikes. Morality is intrinsic for most people. If your morals would disappear without religion to rein it in, there’s something wrong with you.

Oh dear. You’re one of those parents. “My child can do no wrong because he just IS. He was born perfect!”

Lol…what? No, what I’m saying is that if you don’t have an internal moral compass, and you need religion to know right from wrong…you might be a psychopath.

lol right back. Where do you believe that one gets this “internal” moral compass from? Judging by most 4 years olds, it doesn’t exist.

Do you not have an innate sense of right and wrong?

Sure, as a socialized adult I do. But only because I was taught right from wrong by my parents, school, community, etc. Many do not. If you believe it’s an “innate sense” that people are born with, you’re an utter fool.

I feel sorry for you that you apparently need religion to tell you right from wrong. Most people know the difference in their hearts. I wonder what your life must be like.

“Most people know the difference in their hearts” is one of the singularly stupidest statements I have ever read on DCUM, and that is saying something.

I am dumbfounded that a person could reach adulthood with this point of view.