Anonymous
11/19/2023 12:50
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.
Cal tech is test blind
DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.
There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).
What was your test score(s)?
What were the test scores of your child/ren?
Completely agree, and think this is why test blind will stay, and no AP scores are not the next frontier. Of course, it's unlikely a tippy-top student has low scores, but the real take away for top students should be scores are a worthless place to focus efforts, there needs to be something much more significant communicated to these schools. CalTech would definitely take someone who took only Calc AB, the AP curriculum is nothing like their freshman sequence.
Caltech just removed the requirement that a HS kid even take any calculus. I suppose the proof will be how many of those kids they actually accept.
The real proof is how many of those accepted no-calculus kids actually graduate rather than drop it. They would need vast amounts of help just to stay afloat.
Not at all, the freshman sequence is already relearning what was taught (miss taught) in HS with a different impetus. You don't find people who already there, you find people who will take off.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 12:24
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.
Cal tech is test blind
DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.
There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).
What was your test score(s)?
What were the test scores of your child/ren?
Completely agree, and think this is why test blind will stay, and no AP scores are not the next frontier. Of course, it's unlikely a tippy-top student has low scores, but the real take away for top students should be scores are a worthless place to focus efforts, there needs to be something much more significant communicated to these schools. CalTech would definitely take someone who took only Calc AB, the AP curriculum is nothing like their freshman sequence.
Caltech just removed the requirement that a HS kid even take any calculus. I suppose the proof will be how many of those kids they actually accept.
The real proof is how many of those accepted no-calculus kids actually graduate rather than drop it. They would need vast amounts of help just to stay afloat.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 10:58
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.
Cal tech is test blind
DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.
There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).
What was your test score(s)?
What were the test scores of your child/ren?
Completely agree, and think this is why test blind will stay, and no AP scores are not the next frontier. Of course, it's unlikely a tippy-top student has low scores, but the real take away for top students should be scores are a worthless place to focus efforts, there needs to be something much more significant communicated to these schools. CalTech would definitely take someone who took only Calc AB, the AP curriculum is nothing like their freshman sequence.
Caltech just removed the requirement that a HS kid even take any calculus. I suppose the proof will be how many of those kids they actually accept.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 10:54
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.
Cal tech is test blind
DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.
There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).
What was your test score(s)?
What were the test scores of your child/ren?
Completely agree, and think this is why test blind will stay, and no AP scores are not the next frontier. Of course, it's unlikely a tippy-top student has low scores, but the real take away for top students should be scores are a worthless place to focus efforts, there needs to be something much more significant communicated to these schools. CalTech would definitely take someone who took only Calc AB, the AP curriculum is nothing like their freshman sequence.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 10:05
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.
20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.
If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.
The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.
You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.
I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.
And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.
You are putting too much weight on the SAT/ACT.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 10:02
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.
20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.
If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.
The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.
You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.
I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.
And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.
CA is a big state. A number of posters have published actual CA data that supports that fewer than 30% of CA students are taking standardized tests. The facts absolutely support that test blind policies have depressed demand for these tests in CA.
That said, 30% of CA students in any given year still results in a big number.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 08:48
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
At $80.00 a pop?
Yep. Many parents I talk to have spent over $1,500 on college apps. They figure if they can they will to try and get their kid a T20 spot. Many were upset you could not EA to all
Ivys and that ED had restrictions- how unfair. 🙄
Same parents also keep the SAT/ACT tutors plus essay writers in business. Nothing like spending $500+ on someone else to write your kids essays…
Test optional to “increase” fairness = those that can are spending thousands more to increase their shot at getting in, and makes the divide even greater.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 03:04
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.
20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.
If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.
The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.
You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.
I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.
Great point
The UC and CSU systems were flooded with over 1.5 million applications last year. There are not enough seats to fill even 10% of those individuals.
Now that the “bad test taker” crowd has been heard, everyone just gets a lottery ticket.
Some may call that progress. And if your kid is a bad test taker, I guess it seems that way in the short term. But for the rest of us, it’s an unfortunate step in the wrong direction.
And top students would want UCLA or Berkeley and those are very tough admits. So they have to apply outside the UC system which means they need to take tests and get top scores.
That’s the point.
The cackling, self-satisfied crowd who think ACT and SAT tests are going away for good are already setting sights on AP test scores.
New poster here! Also a CA parent involved in these discussions at the high school level. At our affluent suburban high school about 27% of seniors have taken the SAT/ACT. We do encourage students to take SAT in case they get shut out of UCs, but there is no push. It’s a “family decision.” Many kids are under the impression that they can apply TO everywhere; they don’t realize that more colleges want to see scores now. That said, it’s the norm to apply TO to in-state California schools, and Pomona’s decision makes complete sense.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 01:00
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:https://www.pomona.edu/news/2023/11/15-pomona-college-makes-test-optional-admissions-policy-permanent
Alumni have mixed reactions- some very happy about this, some very disappointed.
Of course it is just a sample size of my friends but most alumni do not care one way or another. The school will have no problem filling its classes with standout students.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 00:55
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.
20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.
If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.
The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.
You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.
I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.
Great point
The UC and CSU systems were flooded with over 1.5 million applications last year. There are not enough seats to fill even 10% of those individuals.
With the proviso that a lot of those 1.5 million applications are numerous kids spamming 10 or 20 schools each.
At $80.00 a pop?
You bet. Just look at any of the reddit threads like r/applyingtocollege
Anonymous
11/18/2023 21:56
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.
Cal tech is test blind
DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.
There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).
What was your test score(s)?
What were the test scores of your child/ren?
Anonymous
11/18/2023 21:44
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Of course. The schools that like tests have moderate demand and moderate prices (Purdue, Bama) or high demand and high prices (MIT, CalTech). Moderate demand + high price = test optional, starting way before COVID with Bates and Chicago. Pomona definitely falls into that category. I would expect all ED schools to stay TO.
Cal tech is test blind
DP but Caltech is an anomaly that it’s test blind. If you look at its admissions site it very clearly states they expect you to take the hardest STEM classes your school offers and it seems like they encourage to go above and beyond if feasible. Outside of first gen students, I don’t think they’re accepting anyone who has just done Calc AB.
There's nothing anomalous about being test blind and wanting demonstrated rigor and achievement. It's more of a recognition that the standardized tests are not good proxies for that and having those numbers available in the file in a test optional system can create a heuristic bias that leads the admission reviewer to substitute the numbers for the demonstrated evidence that the school wants them to look for in an application (which isn't necessarily AP scores either; as other poster mentioned, they want awards, research projects, classes etc that go deeper than numbers).
Anonymous
11/18/2023 20:56
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.
20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.
If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.
The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.
You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.
I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.
And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.
Exactly.
Anonymous
11/18/2023 20:55
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.
20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.
If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.
The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.
You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.
I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.
Great point
The UC and CSU systems were flooded with over 1.5 million applications last year. There are not enough seats to fill even 10% of those individuals.
With the proviso that a lot of those 1.5 million applications are numerous kids spamming 10 or 20 schools each.
At $80.00 a pop?
Anonymous
11/18/2023 20:35
Subject: Pomona to go permanently test-optional
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Live in LA and have kids at private school. Last year maybe 20% of kids did SAT/ACT. This year the school stopped having the kids to PSAT their Jr year. It is just going away out here.
20% of kids in CA took SAT in 2022. It was almost 70% a few years ago.
If anything, you’re directionally highlighting how the pandemic reduced the number of administrations. Not sure where you sourced those figures, but it doesn’t really matter anyway.
Top students in California will continue to take the ACT and/or the SAT, and the students who don’t test well will continue to hope and pray that the test blind and test optional pathways into good schools continue to exist.
The idea of applying to a non-UC T25 school without an ACT or SAT score, knowing there are at least 10x the number of applicants with perfect, rigorous grades than there are applicants with perfect test scores AND that some of the competing applicants are going to be bringing a 36 or a 1600 to the party - I mean, all other things equal, good luck.
You are missing the big picture…CA has 7 UC schools ranked higher than nearly every other flagship across the country…they have Cal State options that provide strong options.
I bet if UVA, VT, WM, UMD, PITT, Penn State…and then list 15 other schools that folks discuss on this board…if they were all test blind, you would see way fewer DMV kids take tests as well. That is what CA offers its residents.
And you are missing the point that there are thousands of solid CA students who matriculate to a non-California university every single year. If they're strivers, and they don't get into the better UC options, they may decide that Northwestern or Vanderbilt or Cornell is the better play than UC Merced. And they'll need a near-perfect ACT/SAT to do it.