Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 18:30     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:HS English Teacher here. We do our best. But the kind of feedback OP is talking about it not physically possible anymore.

All of my 5 classes are 29 students+. If I was to give the time I wanted to all students, it would take 5 minutes per essay AT LEAST. I’m not a math teacher but….
29x5=145 students.
145x5mins=over 12 hours of grading

Not to mention we have two large papers per 9 weeks or so. We only have 1.5 hours of planning per day. 7.5 hours per week to plan, grade, cover classes, attend meetings..

I refuse to work past the duty day anymore. The only solution is to reduce class sizes and allow us our full planning time during the school day.

I leave feedback on the rough draft and encourage them to come in at lunch or go to the writing center. I also conference during class time. However, the main feedback is given on the rough draft. If I provided them feedback on the rough draft, I don’t give feedback again on the final. No time.


Thank you for this response and I do empathize. I’m wondering if you can answer a question my middle school kids have. They have English teachers who provide feedback on the rough draft, as you do. They say that they take all that feedback, revise according to the feedback, and are then frustrated when they end up with a grade of 8 or 8.5 out of 10. In their minds, if there was something else that needed revision they would have happily done it, but they thought they were doing everything asked of them. What is the best way to handle this situation?


More than likely, the students revisions are still not at mastery level (10/10). For example, maybe the teacher gave them feedback that their dialogue punctuation on a narrative assignment needed work. The student could have fixed 1-2 lines of dialogue but still has many more errors. If this was my child, I would encourage them to go back to the teacher at lunch to ask for specific feedback on the final draft. Teachers often give a rubric on the final, so the student could reference that.

Not only will a lunch conference help the student know how to improve but also will probably cement the feedback in their learning for future assignments. I would never turn down a student who wanted more in-person feedback.

In the years that I’ve taught high school, I’ve realized that most students do not even read a lot of the feedback given. Not to say that that is the case in your child’s situation. What I’m trying to say is that a lot of students think they’ve “fixed” their writing but still have things to improve. I think it’s important to remember that there is always room for improvement.


Thank you. I really appreciate this very helpful perspective. You sound like a wonderful teacher.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 18:23     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:HS English Teacher here. We do our best. But the kind of feedback OP is talking about it not physically possible anymore.

All of my 5 classes are 29 students+. If I was to give the time I wanted to all students, it would take 5 minutes per essay AT LEAST. I’m not a math teacher but….
29x5=145 students.
145x5mins=over 12 hours of grading

Not to mention we have two large papers per 9 weeks or so. We only have 1.5 hours of planning per day. 7.5 hours per week to plan, grade, cover classes, attend meetings..

I refuse to work past the duty day anymore. The only solution is to reduce class sizes and allow us our full planning time during the school day.

I leave feedback on the rough draft and encourage them to come in at lunch or go to the writing center. I also conference during class time. However, the main feedback is given on the rough draft. If I provided them feedback on the rough draft, I don’t give feedback again on the final. No time.


Thank you for this response and I do empathize. I’m wondering if you can answer a question my middle school kids have. They have English teachers who provide feedback on the rough draft, as you do. They say that they take all that feedback, revise according to the feedback, and are then frustrated when they end up with a grade of 8 or 8.5 out of 10. In their minds, if there was something else that needed revision they would have happily done it, but they thought they were doing everything asked of them. What is the best way to handle this situation?


More than likely, the students revisions are still not at mastery level (10/10). For example, maybe the teacher gave them feedback that their dialogue punctuation on a narrative assignment needed work. The student could have fixed 1-2 lines of dialogue but still has many more errors. If this was my child, I would encourage them to go back to the teacher at lunch to ask for specific feedback on the final draft. Teachers often give a rubric on the final, so the student could reference that.

Not only will a lunch conference help the student know how to improve but also will probably cement the feedback in their learning for future assignments. I would never turn down a student who wanted more in-person feedback.

In the years that I’ve taught high school, I’ve realized that most students do not even read a lot of the feedback given. Not to say that that is the case in your child’s situation. What I’m trying to say is that a lot of students think they’ve “fixed” their writing but still have things to improve. I think it’s important to remember that there is always room for improvement.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 17:59     Subject: Re:No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do you know how long it would take to give written detailed on every essay for every student?


Yes, but shouldn't it still be done?


Should and can are two different things. What is MCPS willing to eliminate in order to facilitate detailed feedback on every essay for every student? I bet “nothing”.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 17:46     Subject: Re:No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In a subject other than English, I can tell you I also do not give much feedback on work. I tell students if they would like to go over their work after seeing their grade, I am available at lunch, before or after school.

This is all due to the fact that MCPS has gotten rid of reasonable due dates and deadlines. Students have until interims and the end of the quarter to turn in late work. So, if I turn back graded work to students who turned the work in on time, it inevitably gets shared with students who haven’t done the assignment yet, then they can either copy it, or at least use it to answer things correctly in their own words. We can’t even take off more than 10% late credit anymore.


Is the above the reason students aren’t getting grades back timely? We just had a teacher offer a retake BEFORE she even graded the original. Told the students she would enter whichever they got the highest grade on. What???


No, they should be getting grades back in a timely manner. As other teachers have said, depending on the assignment, it can take several hours to grade. A teacher may choose not to put grades in until he/she has graded all of the papers, which may take several hours, meaning several days.

I never directly offer a retake before the original is graded. However, it is policy across the county that most assignments need to be retakable. Therefore, students know a retake is almost always given, and will sometimes ask, “Is this retakable?” At the start of the assessment. If you say no, there could be push back and complaints to admin.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 17:35     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:HS English Teacher here. We do our best. But the kind of feedback OP is talking about it not physically possible anymore.

All of my 5 classes are 29 students+. If I was to give the time I wanted to all students, it would take 5 minutes per essay AT LEAST. I’m not a math teacher but….
29x5=145 students.
145x5mins=over 12 hours of grading

Not to mention we have two large papers per 9 weeks or so. We only have 1.5 hours of planning per day. 7.5 hours per week to plan, grade, cover classes, attend meetings..

I refuse to work past the duty day anymore. The only solution is to reduce class sizes and allow us our full planning time during the school day.

I leave feedback on the rough draft and encourage them to come in at lunch or go to the writing center. I also conference during class time. However, the main feedback is given on the rough draft. If I provided them feedback on the rough draft, I don’t give feedback again on the final. No time.


Thank you for this response and I do empathize. I’m wondering if you can answer a question my middle school kids have. They have English teachers who provide feedback on the rough draft, as you do. They say that they take all that feedback, revise according to the feedback, and are then frustrated when they end up with a grade of 8 or 8.5 out of 10. In their minds, if there was something else that needed revision they would have happily done it, but they thought they were doing everything asked of them. What is the best way to handle this situation?
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 16:56     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
HS English Teacher here. We do our best. But the kind of feedback OP is talking about it not physically possible anymore.

All of my 5 classes are 29 students+. If I was to give the time I wanted to all students, it would take 5 minutes per essay AT LEAST. I’m not a math teacher but….
29x5=145 students.
145x5mins=over 12 hours of grading

Not to mention we have two large papers per 9 weeks or so. We only have 1.5 hours of planning per day. 7.5 hours per week to plan, grade, cover classes, attend meetings..

I refuse to work past the duty day anymore. The only solution is to reduce class sizes and allow us our full planning time during the school day.

I leave feedback on the rough draft and encourage them to come in at lunch or go to the writing center. I also conference during class time. However, the main feedback is given on the rough draft. If I provided them feedback on the rough draft, I don’t give feedback again on the final. No time.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 14:03     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Parents- maybe you can give your kid feedback and have them re-write their essays? If you’re not happy with it, then do something about it. Just a thought….

That is sad—teachers used to do this for the students.


It's not sad. What is really sad is parents expecting schools to raise their kids for them. Teachers don't have time to do basic grading like they used to or provide feedback bc they are too busy too everything else that parents should be doing for their own kids on top of teaching.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 12:32     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:MCPS is a joke

So go back to your private and let us wallow in our misery.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 12:17     Subject: Re:No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do you know how long it would take to give written detailed on every essay for every student?


And yet somehow in the past it was done. Homework was also graded and corrected. Boggles the mind. Guess time was slower then.


Don't be dense.

Less time was spent on various meetings. Teachers didn't accommodate 6 different learning levels, etc in one room along with disruptive behaviors and whatever else goes on now.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 12:05     Subject: Re:No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:In a subject other than English, I can tell you I also do not give much feedback on work. I tell students if they would like to go over their work after seeing their grade, I am available at lunch, before or after school.

This is all due to the fact that MCPS has gotten rid of reasonable due dates and deadlines. Students have until interims and the end of the quarter to turn in late work. So, if I turn back graded work to students who turned the work in on time, it inevitably gets shared with students who haven’t done the assignment yet, then they can either copy it, or at least use it to answer things correctly in their own words. We can’t even take off more than 10% late credit anymore.


Is the above the reason students aren’t getting grades back timely? We just had a teacher offer a retake BEFORE she even graded the original. Told the students she would enter whichever they got the highest grade on. What???
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 11:26     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You won’t get it in middle school or high school either.


This. The teachers just have too many students in MS and HS. There has been very little (if any) meaningful feedback. Sometimes my kid will go in person to talk to her English teacher and get feedback that way.

In ES, they never correct for spelling or grammar, etc.

If you want your kid to become a good writer, you'll have to look elsewhere. Either get a tutor, or sign the kid up for a writing camp/class over the summer. We did this the summer before 8th grade and found it helpful.


MS English teacher here. I wear myself out writing feedback on the major writing tasks and have parents complain about too much feedback. No matter what you do, there’s a parent who complains about it.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 08:45     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:Parents- maybe you can give your kid feedback and have them re-write their essays? If you’re not happy with it, then do something about it. Just a thought….


Yeah, I do this for my kid. But, I’m a kid of immigrant parents and my parents NEVER would have/could have done this for me. I had excellent teachers in my public schools and I learned how to write there. My parents didn’t have to hire a tutor or put me in writing camps or teach me how to write (they couldn’t - they were ESOL!).

So, MCPS is certainly doing kids a disservice by not holding them accountable to accepted writing grammar and spelling standards. Lots of parents want their kids do do well but can’t be the teachers themselves.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 08:04     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Parents- maybe you can give your kid feedback and have them re-write their essays? If you’re not happy with it, then do something about it. Just a thought….

That is sad—teachers used to do this for the students.


And parents and students used to respect teachers… yet they don’t now so we are done working 12 hour days for ungrateful kids/parents. Sorry I’m not sorry.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 07:41     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
Anonymous wrote:Parents- maybe you can give your kid feedback and have them re-write their essays? If you’re not happy with it, then do something about it. Just a thought….

That is sad—teachers used to do this for the students.
Anonymous
Post 11/05/2023 07:31     Subject: No feedback on writing in elementary school
I was recently over at a friend's house whose same aged daughter is in private. She had posted some of her daughter's work on the fridge and the amount of writing she was doing was so much greater than my MCPS kid.