Anonymous
09/27/2023 09:13
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
I think there are at least two different problems:
1) not enough people going into stem fields. There are at least three reasons for this: a) poor curricula in the k-12 grades makes kids not interested in these fields because they don’t see real world interesting use. Here in America kids have more choice in what they study than in many countries. B) insufficient capacity at higher education. They just don’t have the professors to increase capacity. C) relative compensation. These fields are really hard and the comp is okay but not great. You can make more money more easily in non-tech fields. See, eg, all the engineers that go back for a jD to do patent law. This relative wage disparity is not present in most countries.
2) Americans not in stem fields have poor math skills. I’m a lawyer and it’s shocking how often I have to explain simple algebra to other lawyers. People outside of math fields have little intuitive sense for numbers/math. I think common core is supposed to help with that by requiring kids to think about math in different ways instead of just focusing on the old solve this equation worksheets. I also think it’s a problem that most Americans take no math after 12th grade. It’s like a language or like a physical skill — if you don’t use it, you lose it. I don’t know a solution for that.
1) not enough people going into stem fields. There are at least three reasons for this: a) poor curricula in the k-12 grades makes kids not interested in these fields because they don’t see real world interesting use. Here in America kids have more choice in what they study than in many countries. B) insufficient capacity at higher education. They just don’t have the professors to increase capacity. C) relative compensation. These fields are really hard and the comp is okay but not great. You can make more money more easily in non-tech fields. See, eg, all the engineers that go back for a jD to do patent law. This relative wage disparity is not present in most countries.
2) Americans not in stem fields have poor math skills. I’m a lawyer and it’s shocking how often I have to explain simple algebra to other lawyers. People outside of math fields have little intuitive sense for numbers/math. I think common core is supposed to help with that by requiring kids to think about math in different ways instead of just focusing on the old solve this equation worksheets. I also think it’s a problem that most Americans take no math after 12th grade. It’s like a language or like a physical skill — if you don’t use it, you lose it. I don’t know a solution for that.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 09:05
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Who even ranks high schools? What are you talking about?
TJ dropped from #1 to #5 after they went to holistic admissions. US high schools are ranked.
Is this official? Who is doing the ranking?
What’s official is that the poster before you did not actually read the rankings (or worse, is deliberately being inaccurate). The ranking slip occurred based on students that predated the admissions change.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 09:03
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The nation needs people who are good at math, employers say, in the same way motion picture mortals need superheroes. They say America’s poor math performance isn’t funny. It’s a threat to the nation’s global economic competitiveness and national security.
“The advances in technology that are going to drive where the world goes in the next 50 years are going to come from other countries, because they have the intellectual capital and we don’t,” said Jim Stigler, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, who studies the process of teaching and learning subjects including math.
The Defense Department has called for a major initiative to support education in science, technology, education and math, or STEM. It says there are eight times as many college graduates in these disciplines in China and four times as many engineers in Russia as in the United States.
“This is not an educational question alone,” said Josh Wyner, vice president of The Aspen Institute think tank. In July, the think tank warned that other nations, particularly China, are challenging America’s technological dominance. “Resolving the fundamental challenges facing our time requires math."
Meanwhile, the number of jobs in math occupations — positions that “use arithmetic and apply advanced techniques to make calculations, analyze data and solve problems” — will increase by more than 30,000 per year through the end of this decade, Bureau of Labor Statistics figures show. That’s much faster than most other kinds of jobs.
“Mathematics is becoming more and more a part of almost every career,” said Michael Allen, who chairs the math department at Tennessee Technological University.
But most American students aren't prepared for those jobs. In the most recent Program for International Student Assessment tests in math, or PISA, U.S. students scored lower than their counterparts in 36 other education systems worldwide. Students in China scored the highest. Only one in five college-bound American high school students is prepared for college-level courses in STEM, according to the National Science and Technology Council.
One result: Students from other countries are preparing to lead these fields. Only one in five graduate students in math-intensive subjects including computer science and electrical engineering at U.S. universities are American, the National Foundation for American Policy reports. The rest come from abroad. Most will leave the U.S. when they finish their programs.
In the U.S., poor math skills could mean lower salaries for today's kids. A Stanford economist has estimated that, if U.S. pandemic math declines are not reversed, students now in kindergarten through grade 12 will earn from 2% to 9% less over their careers, depending on what state they live in, than their predecessors educated just before the start of the pandemic.
But it also means the country's productivity and competitiveness could slide.
“Math just underpins everything,” said Megan Schrauben, executive director of the Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity’s MiSTEM initiative, which tries to get more students into STEM. “It’s extremely important for the future prosperity of our students and communities, but also our entire state.”
In Massachusetts, employers are anticipating a shortage over the next five years of 11,000 workers in the life sciences alone.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/americas-poor-math-skills-raise-041135854.html
Then create more seats at the college level. There are very qualified students applying to engineering and CS programs who can't get in.
That is not true for college overall...there are plenty of schools that accept 90%+ of their students that offer engineering and CS. You are referencing only the selective schools.
I have read articles in the past about how in China and India...like 80%+ of their engineering and STEM graduates essentially graduated from the equivalent of Devry. These countries have hundreds of colleges that give kids the degree, but it is literally worthless.
There must be a typo in the article. It references that jobs requiring stronger Math will increase by 30,000 per year...in an economy that generates millions of jobs per year, that is next to nothing which seems off to me.
I knew an Indian IT manager who would not hire Indian developers without putting them through a GRUELING assessment. He said the same thing which was that a lot of those programs aren't that good. He found some great ones but it was a whole, whole lot of effort.
Same experience at my old company. Hired some Indian developers whose skills were not even on par with online boot camps.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:50
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Who even ranks high schools? What are you talking about?
TJ dropped from #1 to #5 after they went to holistic admissions. US high schools are ranked.
Based on prior class test scores. It's fun watching people go ballistic over things they think are true, but aren't
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:48
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Rubbish! Someone will have to code AI and constantly correct its errors.Anonymous wrote:AI will make math irrelevant.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:32
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Who even ranks high schools? What are you talking about?
TJ dropped from #1 to #5 after they went to holistic admissions. US high schools are ranked.
Is this official? Who is doing the ranking?
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:29
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Company in need of engineers need to offer after school program teaching math. Right now they can get the engineers from abroad, so no need to go through all that though.
So financially it’s a bad idea for Americans to study engineering. Can’t imagine why there are not more students jumping on the chance to study some real hard courses…
A law degree from a good American university sounds way easier.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:26
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The nation needs people who are good at math, employers say, in the same way motion picture mortals need superheroes. They say America’s poor math performance isn’t funny. It’s a threat to the nation’s global economic competitiveness and national security.
“The advances in technology that are going to drive where the world goes in the next 50 years are going to come from other countries, because they have the intellectual capital and we don’t,” said Jim Stigler, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, who studies the process of teaching and learning subjects including math.
The Defense Department has called for a major initiative to support education in science, technology, education and math, or STEM. It says there are eight times as many college graduates in these disciplines in China and four times as many engineers in Russia as in the United States.
“This is not an educational question alone,” said Josh Wyner, vice president of The Aspen Institute think tank. In July, the think tank warned that other nations, particularly China, are challenging America’s technological dominance. “Resolving the fundamental challenges facing our time requires math."
Meanwhile, the number of jobs in math occupations — positions that “use arithmetic and apply advanced techniques to make calculations, analyze data and solve problems” — will increase by more than 30,000 per year through the end of this decade, Bureau of Labor Statistics figures show. That’s much faster than most other kinds of jobs.
“Mathematics is becoming more and more a part of almost every career,” said Michael Allen, who chairs the math department at Tennessee Technological University.
But most American students aren't prepared for those jobs. In the most recent Program for International Student Assessment tests in math, or PISA, U.S. students scored lower than their counterparts in 36 other education systems worldwide. Students in China scored the highest. Only one in five college-bound American high school students is prepared for college-level courses in STEM, according to the National Science and Technology Council.
One result: Students from other countries are preparing to lead these fields. Only one in five graduate students in math-intensive subjects including computer science and electrical engineering at U.S. universities are American, the National Foundation for American Policy reports. The rest come from abroad. Most will leave the U.S. when they finish their programs.
In the U.S., poor math skills could mean lower salaries for today's kids. A Stanford economist has estimated that, if U.S. pandemic math declines are not reversed, students now in kindergarten through grade 12 will earn from 2% to 9% less over their careers, depending on what state they live in, than their predecessors educated just before the start of the pandemic.
But it also means the country's productivity and competitiveness could slide.
“Math just underpins everything,” said Megan Schrauben, executive director of the Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity’s MiSTEM initiative, which tries to get more students into STEM. “It’s extremely important for the future prosperity of our students and communities, but also our entire state.”
In Massachusetts, employers are anticipating a shortage over the next five years of 11,000 workers in the life sciences alone.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/americas-poor-math-skills-raise-041135854.html
Then create more seats at the college level. There are very qualified students applying to engineering and CS programs who can't get in.
That is not true for college overall...there are plenty of schools that accept 90%+ of their students that offer engineering and CS. You are referencing only the selective schools.
I have read articles in the past about how in China and India...like 80%+ of their engineering and STEM graduates essentially graduated from the equivalent of Devry. These countries have hundreds of colleges that give kids the degree, but it is literally worthless.
There must be a typo in the article. It references that jobs requiring stronger Math will increase by 30,000 per year...in an economy that generates millions of jobs per year, that is next to nothing which seems off to me.
Colleges with open admission are not producing the engineers who drive the economy. Selective schools could double the size of engineering and CS departments and still reject qualified applicants
But that would make them less selective and hurt their USNWR rankings...
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:25
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Who even ranks high schools? What are you talking about?
TJ dropped from #1 to #5 after they went to holistic admissions. US high schools are ranked.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:24
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The nation needs people who are good at math, employers say, in the same way motion picture mortals need superheroes. They say America’s poor math performance isn’t funny. It’s a threat to the nation’s global economic competitiveness and national security.
“The advances in technology that are going to drive where the world goes in the next 50 years are going to come from other countries, because they have the intellectual capital and we don’t,” said Jim Stigler, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, who studies the process of teaching and learning subjects including math.
The Defense Department has called for a major initiative to support education in science, technology, education and math, or STEM. It says there are eight times as many college graduates in these disciplines in China and four times as many engineers in Russia as in the United States.
“This is not an educational question alone,” said Josh Wyner, vice president of The Aspen Institute think tank. In July, the think tank warned that other nations, particularly China, are challenging America’s technological dominance. “Resolving the fundamental challenges facing our time requires math."
Meanwhile, the number of jobs in math occupations — positions that “use arithmetic and apply advanced techniques to make calculations, analyze data and solve problems” — will increase by more than 30,000 per year through the end of this decade, Bureau of Labor Statistics figures show. That’s much faster than most other kinds of jobs.
“Mathematics is becoming more and more a part of almost every career,” said Michael Allen, who chairs the math department at Tennessee Technological University.
But most American students aren't prepared for those jobs. In the most recent Program for International Student Assessment tests in math, or PISA, U.S. students scored lower than their counterparts in 36 other education systems worldwide. Students in China scored the highest. Only one in five college-bound American high school students is prepared for college-level courses in STEM, according to the National Science and Technology Council.
One result: Students from other countries are preparing to lead these fields. Only one in five graduate students in math-intensive subjects including computer science and electrical engineering at U.S. universities are American, the National Foundation for American Policy reports. The rest come from abroad. Most will leave the U.S. when they finish their programs.
In the U.S., poor math skills could mean lower salaries for today's kids. A Stanford economist has estimated that, if U.S. pandemic math declines are not reversed, students now in kindergarten through grade 12 will earn from 2% to 9% less over their careers, depending on what state they live in, than their predecessors educated just before the start of the pandemic.
But it also means the country's productivity and competitiveness could slide.
“Math just underpins everything,” said Megan Schrauben, executive director of the Michigan Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity’s MiSTEM initiative, which tries to get more students into STEM. “It’s extremely important for the future prosperity of our students and communities, but also our entire state.”
In Massachusetts, employers are anticipating a shortage over the next five years of 11,000 workers in the life sciences alone.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/americas-poor-math-skills-raise-041135854.html
Then create more seats at the college level. There are very qualified students applying to engineering and CS programs who can't get in.
That is not true for college overall...there are plenty of schools that accept 90%+ of their students that offer engineering and CS. You are referencing only the selective schools.
I have read articles in the past about how in China and India...like 80%+ of their engineering and STEM graduates essentially graduated from the equivalent of Devry. These countries have hundreds of colleges that give kids the degree, but it is literally worthless.
There must be a typo in the article. It references that jobs requiring stronger Math will increase by 30,000 per year...in an economy that generates millions of jobs per year, that is next to nothing which seems off to me.
I think their post is mostly scare tactic nonsense. Every year the AMC and AIME tests keep getting harder and harder because the top kids are doing better. The US is always among the top countries in the math olympiad these days.
These bulk statistics being used to raise alarms include outsided numbers of recent immigrants who often aren't fluent in English and this has an impact on overall averages. This is to be expected and not indicative of a crisis.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:19
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Who even ranks high schools? What are you talking about?
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:19
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-07-12/california-math-overhaul-focuses-on-equity-amid-low-test-scores
The guide emphasizes replacing traditional instruction with a focus on “big ideas” with the hope that students with varying math skills can work together in the same class for most of their schooling and reverse the state’s low math achievement levels. Critics predict a decline in math achievement from what they see as watered-down curriculum and teaching approaches that they say rely more on ideology than research.
The guide emphasizes replacing traditional instruction with a focus on “big ideas” with the hope that students with varying math skills can work together in the same class for most of their schooling and reverse the state’s low math achievement levels. Critics predict a decline in math achievement from what they see as watered-down curriculum and teaching approaches that they say rely more on ideology than research.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:15
Subject: Re:America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Fake GPAs, grade inflation.
Not teaching a strong foundation in math basics and pushing acceleration w/out mastery.
We pulled my kids off the crazy acceleration path in middle school. They had As but it was clear the algebra in middle school was inadequate.
Now kids don’t even have to show math proficiency on the SATs to get into college. Test optional.
Nowhere else in the world can you get into university without exams.
They now want to remove AP exam results, results from ACT/SATs and things like SOLs as a criteria for ranking US high schools.
This country is absolutely ridiculous. In the name of equity and holistics we are removing every legitimate standard. How exactly are we screening math skills? Of course it’s getting worse while we falsely declare kids math accelerated and proficient and slap a pass or an A on their report card.
+1
Nailed it - the Dumbing Down of America is exactly why we have to hire from overseas.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 08:14
Subject: Re:America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Anonymous wrote:Fake GPAs, grade inflation.
Not teaching a strong foundation in math basics and pushing acceleration w/out mastery.
We pulled my kids off the crazy acceleration path in middle school. They had As but it was clear the algebra in middle school was inadequate.
Now kids don’t even have to show math proficiency on the SATs to get into college. Test optional.
Nowhere else in the world can you get into university without exams.
They now want to remove AP exam results, results from ACT/SATs and things like SOLs as a criteria for ranking US high schools.
This country is absolutely ridiculous. In the name of equity and holistics we are removing every legitimate standard. How exactly are we screening math skills? Of course it’s getting worse while we falsely declare kids math accelerated and proficient and slap a pass or an A on their report card.
Anonymous
09/27/2023 07:20
Subject: America's poor math skills raise alarms over global competitiveness
Company in need of engineers need to offer after school program teaching math. Right now they can get the engineers from abroad, so no need to go through all that though.