Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I consider myself a liberal but I’m getting really tired of the focus on first gen students. I can do full pay for my kid, but that doesn’t mean it’s peanuts. It’s borderline obnoxious when you go to college visits and half of what they focus on is how affordable it’s going to be for kids who can’t pay and I know I’m paying full price and it’s going to cost a fortune.

Are you really liberal? I’m moderate and will be full pay and I don’t care that schools focus on first gen students or that other families will get financial aid. The real issue is that higher education costs are out of control.

Liberals are some of the biggest hypocrites out there! Everything changes when it affects your kids. SMH

One of the reasons higher education costs are out of control for full pay families is that full pays subsidize others through contributing to the financial aid budget.

Tuition also subsidizes athletics, research (the institution's contribution), and many other areas.

Anonymous wrote:I consider myself a liberal but I’m getting really tired of the focus on first gen students. I can do full pay for my kid, but that doesn’t mean it’s peanuts. It’s borderline obnoxious when you go to college visits and half of what they focus on is how affordable it’s going to be for kids who can’t pay and I know I’m paying full price and it’s going to cost a fortune.

Are you really liberal? I’m moderate and will be full pay and I don’t care that schools focus on first gen students or that other families will get financial aid. The real issue is that higher education costs are out of control.

Liberals are some of the biggest hypocrites out there! Everything changes when it affects your kids. SMH

Anonymous wrote:
Sure WM will continue to be the 2nd/3rd choice for VA In-State

Really nothing changes for WM

It's my kid's first choice. Best for International Relations/policy. Former heads of FBI, CIA are alum. Robert Gates is current Chancellor.

Anonymous wrote:I consider myself a liberal but I’m getting really tired of the focus on first gen students. I can do full pay for my kid, but that doesn’t mean it’s peanuts. It’s borderline obnoxious when you go to college visits and half of what they focus on is how affordable it’s going to be for kids who can’t pay and I know I’m paying full price and it’s going to cost a fortune.

I hear ya.

W&M gets lost in the one-size-fits-all approach of US News. If you are looking for a more intimate environment focused on undergraduate education, compared to the 21 public schools ranked above it in US News:

W&M ranks highest for undergraduate teaching (US News and Niche)
W&M has the best (lowest) student to faculty ratio (US News)
W&M as the highest Academic Rating (Princeton Review)
W&M is more intimate, with an undergraduate enrollment about 1/5th the average of the US News higher ranked publics and with the highest percentage of undergraduates living on campus (US News)

Obviously if you want a big school, big city, or big time (Power 5) sports, W&M may not be for you. But why does US News have to make it one-size-fits all?

William and Mary is caught in no man's land in USNWR rankings. It is more or less somewhere between a National University and a National Liberal Arts College, but it is ranked with National Universities due to its Carnegie Classification. It is kind of like if a compact car was ranked with large SUVs in Consumer Reports using large SUV criteria.

There are now 21 public national universities ranked higher in USNWR and the differences are enormous. Compared to those 21 schools, W&M is far, far smaller. The 21 schools average about 32,000 undergraduates vs. 6,700 at W&M, and the next smallest (UVA) is still 2.7X larger. USNWR now has ranking metrics based on research (publications, citations, etc.) and W&M certainly ranks well behind all these schools in research expenditures (W&M does not have a medical school or an engineering school). Research also impacts financial resources, which are another USNWR metric.

On the flip side, W&M ranks ahead of all 21 of these schools in USNWR's undergraduate teaching rating, it has the best student to teaching faculty ratio. (How is this possible if W&M really has fewer resources related to education?) and it has the highest percentage of students living on campus. It is just a very different type of school.

Anonymous wrote:UVA
6-year graduation rate of students who received a Pell Grant (3%) - 92%
6-year graduation rate of first generation students (2.5%) - 87%
Average first-year student retention rate (5%) - 97%
https://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/uva-6968/overall-rankings

Tech
6-year graduation rate of students who received a Pell Grant (3%) - 83%
6-year graduation rate of first-generation students (2.5%) - 79%
Average first-year student retention rate (5%) - 92%
https://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/virginia-tech-3754/overall-rankings

W&M
6-year graduation rate of students who received a Pell Grant (3%) - 84%
6-year graduation rate of first-generation students (2.5%) - 89%
Average first-year student retention rate (5%) - 94%
https://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/william-and-mary-3705/overall-rankings

UVA had a higher Pell Grant grad rate, but W&M is higher for first generation grad rate.

Looking at the USNEWs rankings, none of these schools actually did that great on social mobility. UVA was T198, VT was T207, and W&M was T280. The retention rates are good, but they, particularly W&M, are held back by Pell Rates, which are toward the bottom. UVA and VT are 15%, and W&M is 12%. UC Irvine, which is ranked #12 in Social Mobility and #33 overall has 38% Pell Recipients. There is a multiplier effect if you have higher rates.

I consider myself a liberal but I’m getting really tired of the focus on first gen students. I can do full pay for my kid, but that doesn’t mean it’s peanuts. It’s borderline obnoxious when you go to college visits and half of what they focus on is how affordable it’s going to be for kids who can’t pay and I know I’m paying full price and it’s going to cost a fortune.

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Anonymous wrote:What a fortuitous coincidence that exactly when W&M could greatly benefit from helping the downtrodden, the country finds itself with an abundance of ambitious first-generation college-age immigrants whom the progressives in Williamsburg would probably welcome with open arms.

The do. WM is now tuition free for Pell grant students, and these students graduate at a high rate. They are welcome and supported.

The question is, should WM do soft/hard DEI targets like VT, even at the expense of taking more qualified students? I have a kid who went through TJ during the admissions criteria change, and am inclined to say no.

W&M should not set DEI targets, they should remain the school they are and have always been.

When rankings disregard commitment to undergraduate teaching by devaluing small class sizes being taught by highly qualified professors (not TAs) then those rankings become utterly meaningless.

Best liberal arts college in VA. Hands down.

Every course is taught by a Professor, not TAs. It's known to be very rigorous, and that the students are some of the best prepared after graduation (as told by graduate programs, law schools and employers).

So, these TAs aren’t really TAs?

https://www.wm.edu/as/cga/people/teaching-assistants/
https://www.wm.edu/as/graduate/studentresources/resources-teaching/
This handbook contains helpful information to prepare grad students to step into the classroom as an instructor for the first time, or for the hundredth time. It offers practical advice about teaching relevant for TAs and TFs.

My kid took Intro GIS. It’s taught by a professor. That class, History 192 on the humanities side and maybe one on the STEM side are larger other have small section discussion with a “TA” from the education school (vs grad students from the department). It’s not the norm. And no kid should have more than one class as an undergrad where that happens.

Wrong.

Participate in the Graduate Teaching Project
The Graduate Teaching Project (GTP) is offered as a zero credit, free course for grad students in Arts & Sciences. It is offered once each year and is particularly helpful for students preparing to teach their own course or looking to improve their teaching effectiveness.

It is for graduate students to learn how to teach, but they don't teach the main sections of any undergraduate courses at W&M.

It is to help them develop teaching skills because that is a requirement for when they get a job in academia.

Anonymous wrote:But even if it is tuition free for Pell grant - what about room and board? Does W&M cover that too? If not, Pell grant kids with other options (100% meet needs / more generous financial aid) will go elsewhere

W&M already has what appears to be the lowest overall net cost for lower to lower middle income for Virginia public colleges. It is lowest net cost up to $48K, second to VMI for $48 to $75K, and second lowest to UVA-Wise for $75K to $110K income. And it is now tuition free for Pell Grant recipients.

https://tamingthehighcostofcollege.com/net-price-of-virginia-colleges-by-income/

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Anonymous wrote:What a fortuitous coincidence that exactly when W&M could greatly benefit from helping the downtrodden, the country finds itself with an abundance of ambitious first-generation college-age immigrants whom the progressives in Williamsburg would probably welcome with open arms.

The do. WM is now tuition free for Pell grant students, and these students graduate at a high rate. They are welcome and supported.

The question is, should WM do soft/hard DEI targets like VT, even at the expense of taking more qualified students? I have a kid who went through TJ during the admissions criteria change, and am inclined to say no.

W&M should not set DEI targets, they should remain the school they are and have always been.

When rankings disregard commitment to undergraduate teaching by devaluing small class sizes being taught by highly qualified professors (not TAs) then those rankings become utterly meaningless.

Best liberal arts college in VA. Hands down.

Every course is taught by a Professor, not TAs. It's known to be very rigorous, and that the students are some of the best prepared after graduation (as told by graduate programs, law schools and employers).

So, these TAs aren’t really TAs?

https://www.wm.edu/as/cga/people/teaching-assistants/
https://www.wm.edu/as/graduate/studentresources/resources-teaching/
This handbook contains helpful information to prepare grad students to step into the classroom as an instructor for the first time, or for the hundredth time. It offers practical advice about teaching relevant for TAs and TFs.

My kid took Intro GIS. It’s taught by a professor. That class, History 192 on the humanities side and maybe one on the STEM side are larger other have small section discussion with a “TA” from the education school (vs grad students from the department). It’s not the norm. And no kid should have more than one class as an undergrad where that happens.

Wrong.

Participate in the Graduate Teaching Project
The Graduate Teaching Project (GTP) is offered as a zero credit, free course for grad students in Arts & Sciences. It is offered once each year and is particularly helpful for students preparing to teach their own course or looking to improve their teaching effectiveness.

DP: W&M hardly has any graduate programs--so this isn't particularly relevant outside the majors where there is a grad program and I can't imagine that it's a major part of any undergrad experience like it often is at other schools.

Several links have been provided that say otherwise. Stop pretending WM doesn’t use TAs to teach classes. They do.

I'm a different poster-- so I don't know what you mean by "Stop pretending." I'm just noting that compared to other national universities W&M only has a small handful of grad programs. So if they use any TAs it's a very minimal amount. How about this: A strong feature of WM undergraduate education is the vast, vast majority of classes are taught by professors. FWIW, my kid graduated there and never had a TA teach a class.

Their website says all classes are taught by faculty. TAs proctor labs and have office hours.

https://www.wm.edu/admission/undergraduateadmission/facts-figures/recognized-and-respected/

Anonymous wrote:TBH no gives a sh#t about W&M outside this region. It could improve by 10 spots or decline by 20 and no one outside the DMV would care.

I mean— it’s almost 40% OOS. So some people care.

UVA
6-year graduation rate of students who received a Pell Grant (3%) - 92%
6-year graduation rate of first generation students (2.5%) - 87%
Average first-year student retention rate (5%) - 97%
https://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/uva-6968/overall-rankings

Tech
6-year graduation rate of students who received a Pell Grant (3%) - 83%
6-year graduation rate of first-generation students (2.5%) - 79%
Average first-year student retention rate (5%) - 92%
https://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/virginia-tech-3754/overall-rankings

W&M
6-year graduation rate of students who received a Pell Grant (3%) - 84%
6-year graduation rate of first-generation students (2.5%) - 89%
Average first-year student retention rate (5%) - 94%
https://premium.usnews.com/best-colleges/william-and-mary-3705/overall-rankings

Anonymous wrote:** adding**

UVA has also a higher graduation rate of 1st gen & Pell Grant, so they are doing something very right.

No, I am not having a student at UVA, though kid got accepted.

Could you provide your citations please?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:What a fortuitous coincidence that exactly when W&M could greatly benefit from helping the downtrodden, the country finds itself with an abundance of ambitious first-generation college-age immigrants whom the progressives in Williamsburg would probably welcome with open arms.

The do. WM is now tuition free for Pell grant students, and these students graduate at a high rate. They are welcome and supported.

The question is, should WM do soft/hard DEI targets like VT, even at the expense of taking more qualified students? I have a kid who went through TJ during the admissions criteria change, and am inclined to say no.

That's one hell of a weird conspiracy theory you have there. It almost sounds ... *checks notes* ... RACIST.

I understood it more along the lines, see what UVA does right in that sense. They have a higher ethnic diversity than Tech or W&M, while keeping their stats high. Sure, as the state flagship their visibility is higher and their appeal to a broader group makes it easier.

Try to find the diamonds out there in those groups and get them interested. They are there.

Wait, what? Where are you getting this from?