Anonymous wrote:I've never understood the extreme emphasis on stem degrees on this forum. In my experience those with stem work low-mid level jobs.

Business people who generate income streams in any field are the ones bringing in the incomes.

Engineering degrees have the most representation in the backgrounds for CEOs in this country. Sorry, English majors and Philosophy degrees don’t innovate and figure out problems to run the country.

Anonymous wrote:no more degrees unless full scholarship

No. She needs to go to a good law school and they don't offer full scholarships. She will make lots of money at a firm and it won't be hard to pay off loans. She has a PhD in CS. That's super valuable.

--JD, PhD who paid off my loans in <2 years after law school

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She should move to NYC or DC or similar and get a job as a paralegal, preferably in an IP department for a year or two while she prepares for the LSAT and takes the bar. No, it’s no beneath her. If she spends a year in that environment and decides THAT is what she wants from her life and that she’d been good at it, then go for it.

You bur PP are right. Reality is IP attorneys making the big bucks are those bringing in big clients. Sitting in an office doing the actual work day after day, 80 hours a week, will only take you so far. And it’s stressful AF. And she’ll have no choice but to stay in that environment. Because loans.

IP litigation makes big bucks. Patent prosecution is a loss leader that big law is increasingly backing away from.

Doing patent prosecution early in your career is a great base for litigation, many government roles, or other client counseling work. She shouldn't shy from working as a tech spec, even if prosecution isn't her ultimate career goal.

no more degrees unless full scholarship

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She has a PhD in CS

Why PhD in that field? She could have gotten a well-paying job straight out of undergrad.

Some people like the academic study of things and when you are young are idealistic about needing money. Grad school is paid by TA or RA, so you make a stipend, get subsidized housing, and get to learn about what interests you. Introverts who like school fill STEM grad schools.

The OBSESSION about money about all else is a relatively new mainstream development — for a while careers were about fulfillment and making a difference. But now we know that is all a bunch of crock, but OP DD didn’t get the memo in time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She should move to NYC or DC or similar and get a job as a paralegal, preferably in an IP department for a year or two while she prepares for the LSAT and takes the bar. No, it’s no beneath her. If she spends a year in that environment and decides THAT is what she wants from her life and that she’d been good at it, then go for it.

You bur PP are right. Reality is IP attorneys making the big bucks are those bringing in big clients. Sitting in an office doing the actual work day after day, 80 hours a week, will only take you so far. And it’s stressful AF. And she’ll have no choice but to stay in that environment. Because loans.

This is 100% wrong. She should not get a job as a paralegal. She has a PhD. She could get a job as a technical specialist and make good money and have her law degree funded. She could also get a job as a parent examiner and try the field out that way. It would be less money, but would let her decide if she is interested in IP.

*parent examiner

Lol, autocorrect really doesn’t like the word patent.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She’s an adult let her figure this out.

I know. But I'm curious. I'd like to have something to say to her when she brings it up. I've been (subtly) encouraging her to go into academia, but she says she has no interest in academia. She enjoyed being a TA, and she's even an adjunct at a college near where she works. I'm wondering what it takes to be a patent attorney. She worked really hard to get her PhD and thinks she should make more money. She doesn't want to work for FAANG, for some reason I can't figure out.

Money - it takes over $200K to go to law school, and she won't be making $500K out of the gate.

Anonymous wrote:What's with all the posts lately with parents of adult children worrying over their careers? They're ADULTS. They need to figure these things out themselves and do their own research and come to their own conclusions. Are they really going to make big life decisions because their mommy tells them "Someone on the internet said ....."?

Whatever. The wealthy have been guiding their offspring careers forever, that’s why they already went into finance while OP went to academia.

It sounds like your daughter is asking herself “is this it? Is this all there is?” and may be considering law school because going back to school is a great way to put off adulthood. I’m a lawyer and I think getting a law degree after getting a phd would be a really bad idea. It will make her look like someone who really just wants to stay in school forever and doesn’t have an actual interest in working. She has tons of options of things she can do with her degree to make money. She just needs to push through and grow up.

My husband has been a patent attorney for 20 years, and before that worked as an examiner at the USPTO (while going to law school)

The only way a patent attorney is making that much is if they’re a litigator at a top firm, or at least a partner somewhere with a lot of your own clients.

So after the LSAT, 3 years of expensive school, the bar exam and the patent bar, she’d have to find a big law job and compete with other attorneys to be on the litigation side of things. Guess what—you don’t have to be a patent attorney to litigate—so you’re competing with the extroverts who like to litigate.

Patent prosecution (obtaining patents for clients from the USPTO) is a grind at the big firms that pay well. It’s hard to get your hours because firms promise large corporate clients to get patents without billing a lot of hours. In house is better but the odds of making 500k are low.

Not a good idea.

Now, if she just wants a change and is interested in patent prosecution, with her education she could work as an examiner at the USPTO or take the patent bar and become a patent agent. Some specialty IP firms also hire phds as technical experts.

Alternatively, we have a friend with a PhD who worked at the USPTO and then emigrated to New Zealand—you can be a patent attorney there without going to law school. He’s been there for a long time so I don’t remember all the steps he took to get there, but it worked out really well for him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She’s an adult let her figure this out.

I know. But I'm curious. I'd like to have something to say to her when she brings it up. I've been (subtly) encouraging her to go into academia, but she says she has no interest in academia. She enjoyed being a TA, and she's even an adjunct at a college near where she works. I'm wondering what it takes to be a patent attorney. She worked really hard to get her PhD and thinks she should make more money. She doesn't want to work for FAANG, for some reason I can't figure out.

It sounds like your daughter likes being in school, and she doesn't want to work. So what you say to her is that you will not fund another degree nor pay for her housing/living expenses while she grinds away in school full-time for three more years. That there are plenty of ways to earn more money with a CS degree, but she'd have to go out and actually interview for those jobs, and some of them may involve work or employers that aren't ideal. (with a focus on CS, who exactly does she think would be spending big money on patents? FAANG.)

Academia is a shit show, and then ALSO much like law she'd be working continually to develop funding-- continually submitting to NSF grants and publishing in order to get more grants. Yeah, my long-time CS prof clears $200,000 and has tenure. So he gets to harass cute CS students (presumably she won't find that to be the perk that unmarried men do) and won't get fired because he brings in a few million in grants.

There are a ton of government jobs that will take a PhD in CS as a substitute for some years of experience. I suggest she start there, if she has a moral objection to Google for some reason.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My friend, a patent attorney, says in order to make good money, you have to be great at getting customers.

Is she up to it?

No, I doubt it. She's quite introverted. She's a typical nerd.

Generally those who make the money in business and law are those who bring in clients. She would be well served to work on her social skills with something like Toastmasters. Social skills will help in any type of jobs.

Introverted workers typically work in back room support lower pay jobs across all industries.

Anonymous wrote:I've never understood the extreme emphasis on stem degrees on this forum. In my experience those with stem work low-mid level jobs.

Business people who generate income streams in any field are the ones bringing in the incomes.

Presumably, STEM has a lower floor and a similar ceiling than other degrees. This FORUM also thinks 300k+ salaries are the norm, but in the real world, a job earning 150k a year with a CS degree is pretty good

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:CS person here. You can get a decent job and make big bucks with just a bachelor's. Sounds like she has a specialized PhD, so I bet she already knows the big company players in her particular area of specialty. They are the companies that go to and present at the same conferences she attends. I bet they're hiring, and they will pay well for PhDs.

But they don't because they don't have too. Sadly academia sets the standard that this person is willing to accept much lower pay for the "love of it." As a PhD myself I'd argue that the degree lowers your worth in the private sector. That said, everyone has to earn their keep. You'll earn similar wages as a bachelor degree with no real world experience (because you also have none as a PhD). It takes years to build up your worth whether you have a law degree or not. They longer she is a student the higher her debt, the lower her wages.

In the private sector she would be smart to leave the PhD off of her resume.

Such a weird post. What is wrong with your DD? So many questionable decisions.