Anonymous
Post 08/19/2023 13:15     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
I think part of Dr. Reid’s strategic plan has everyone taking algebra 1 in 8th grade.
Anonymous
Post 08/19/2023 13:03     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Math education in the US needs to be revamped from top to bottom. It is time to get rid of the discipline or tree based model and go with an integrated math education approach that introduced aspects of algebra and geometry in middle school similar to what is done in the UK, Europe and most of the rest of the world.

The US leads the world on many fronts but math education is not one of them. Stop with the method of the day, still remember the lattice method, inflicted on my kids and get with a program that works for the rest of the world.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 15:24     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:SOL data suggests that majority of FCPS kids do fine after taking Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Before covid, 13-14% of FCPS 7th graders took Algebra 1 in 7th and 11-12% took Algebra 2 in 9th. Thus, a few may leave the track, but the majority are still there and they appear to be doing well. Again, before covid, roughly 80% of FCPS students taking Algebra 2 in 9th grade scored pass advanced on their SOL. (And this share would likely be higher absent content coverage quirks -- some teachers opt not to spend much time on statistics in order to better prepare kids for Precalculus and Calculus content.) SOL scores have fallen post-covid but that reflects learning loss.
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306


Well, you would expect the majority to do "fine" -- it's only the very strongest academic kids who take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. But some of these top students end up getting B's when they would have more likely have earned As earlier. They are at the bottom of the "advanced" class which becomes their comparative group and slowly opt out of STEM careers they were interested in because they are "not that good at math." They probably would have been better served by taking it in 8th grade since there's no college advantage to taking it sooner. It might help their math foundations and their overall math self concept. This might have happened to my eldest kid. I just went with the flow and had him take Algebra 1H in 7th--he had a 93 on the IAAT, pass advanced on the SOL and teacher recommended it. Was young for his grade (summer birthday). Got a B, thought about doing a retake of it in 8th, but was told "B's are very good, I was being too perfectionist etc.". So I let it slide. He got As and Bs in his advanced math/AP classes, but went from being super interested in engineering to thinking himself not good enough in math for it. Plus the Bs did close some college options for him as they were his lowest grades. Got a 740 in math on his first try on the SAT, but still just felt like he didn't like math and wasn't good enough at it to pursue a STEM major. For my second kid with nearly identical scores, I recommended waiting until 8th (also a summer birthday, so young for grade). She seems to be more confident in herself and is sustaining her STEM interest better and so far has gotten As in math. Just two data points on a complex subject of course, but something to consider.

Thanks for sharing this. I believe your story.

I understand that many parents don't have a good idea of how to judge this and that teacher advice is not perfect, and that there is probably some reputation/peer pressure. I am fortunate enough to be in the field and am very engaged in learning mathematics with my child.

From that perspective, I would not have signed up my child for Algebra I in 6th grade had they not scored a 60/60 on the IAAT (as well as on the similar practice tests they took) and regular 600s on the SOLs, plus lots of supplementary math in AoPS. The assessments given in school set IMO too low of a bar, in part due to parent pressure, in part due to the nature of these assessments.


I'm the PP, and that's what I think too. I believe there are some kids who can easily handle Algebra H early--who thrive on it. They have strong math aptitude and interest. My kid had friends like this in his math classes--they likely would have been better served by taking it in 6th than 7th. Withholding accelerated math instruction from them would be a waste of their interest and potential. But the overall push to have academically advanced kids take it earlier than 8th grade is not serving kids' math understanding/interest well. Thankfully it doesn't seem selective colleges--even in STEM--care whether you took it in 7th or 8th as long as you get to Calc in HS (and do well throughout of course).
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 15:09     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:SOL data suggests that majority of FCPS kids do fine after taking Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Before covid, 13-14% of FCPS 7th graders took Algebra 1 in 7th and 11-12% took Algebra 2 in 9th. Thus, a few may leave the track, but the majority are still there and they appear to be doing well. Again, before covid, roughly 80% of FCPS students taking Algebra 2 in 9th grade scored pass advanced on their SOL. (And this share would likely be higher absent content coverage quirks -- some teachers opt not to spend much time on statistics in order to better prepare kids for Precalculus and Calculus content.) SOL scores have fallen post-covid but that reflects learning loss.
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306


Well, you would expect the majority to do "fine" -- it's only the very strongest academic kids who take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. But some of these top students end up getting B's when they would have more likely have earned As earlier. They are at the bottom of the "advanced" class which becomes their comparative group and slowly opt out of STEM careers they were interested in because they are "not that good at math." They probably would have been better served by taking it in 8th grade since there's no college advantage to taking it sooner. It might help their math foundations and their overall math self concept. This might have happened to my eldest kid. I just went with the flow and had him take Algebra 1H in 7th--he had a 93 on the IAAT, pass advanced on the SOL and teacher recommended it. Was young for his grade (summer birthday). Got a B, thought about doing a retake of it in 8th, but was told "B's are very good, I was being too perfectionist etc.". So I let it slide. He got As and Bs in his advanced math/AP classes, but went from being super interested in engineering to thinking himself not good enough in math for it. Plus the Bs did close some college options for him as they were his lowest grades. Got a 740 in math on his first try on the SAT, but still just felt like he didn't like math and wasn't good enough at it to pursue a STEM major. For my second kid with nearly identical scores, I recommended waiting until 8th (also a summer birthday, so young for grade). She seems to be more confident in herself and is sustaining her STEM interest better and so far has gotten As in math. Just two data points on a complex subject of course, but something to consider.

Thanks for sharing this. I believe your story.

I understand that many parents don't have a good idea of how to judge this and that teacher advice is not perfect, and that there is probably some reputation/peer pressure. I am fortunate enough to be in the field and am very engaged in learning mathematics with my child.

From that perspective, I would not have signed up my child for Algebra I in 6th grade had they not scored a 60/60 on the IAAT (as well as on the similar practice tests they took) and regular 600s on the SOLs, plus lots of supplementary math in AoPS. The assessments given in school set IMO too low of a bar, in part due to parent pressure, in part due to the nature of these assessments.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 15:03     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why the need to take Calculus in high school? I didn't take it until college, and I was a Mathematics major.

The US is the only industrialized country that teaches (single variable) calculus in college. Everywhere else it's considered a prerequisite for attending a university.

Soon we'll teach precalculus in college - not a trend we should be proud of.

Calculus (based on the level of intellectual capacity displayed if you pass it by the age of 18) is a good gatekeeper to decide who should pursue more education after HS.


Something most people will never use should be the gatekeeper for post-secondary education. Got it. Signed, math major.

Note that I used the indefinite article "a" whereas you misquoted me by using the definite article "the."

Having a level of math proficiency that roughly equates with calculus is not the only gate keeper. In most countries, students have to show equivalent levels of proficiency in the respective native language and well as one or more sciences, typically a foreign language, as well as history. (In some countries, they can pick 3 or 4 out of the 5, but they can never drop math or their native language.) You have to pass your exams in all of these before you're considered qualified to attend a university. They are gatekeepers in their entirety (This is, btw, not *that* different from us - it's just that it's called AP or DE. But unlike a science or foreign language, math is a core subject.)
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 14:37     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:SOL data suggests that majority of FCPS kids do fine after taking Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Before covid, 13-14% of FCPS 7th graders took Algebra 1 in 7th and 11-12% took Algebra 2 in 9th. Thus, a few may leave the track, but the majority are still there and they appear to be doing well. Again, before covid, roughly 80% of FCPS students taking Algebra 2 in 9th grade scored pass advanced on their SOL. (And this share would likely be higher absent content coverage quirks -- some teachers opt not to spend much time on statistics in order to better prepare kids for Precalculus and Calculus content.) SOL scores have fallen post-covid but that reflects learning loss.
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306


Well, you would expect the majority to do "fine" -- it's only the very strongest academic kids who take Algebra 1 in 7th grade. But some of these top students end up getting B's when they would have more likely have earned As earlier. They are at the bottom of the "advanced" class which becomes their comparative group and slowly opt out of STEM careers they were interested in because they are "not that good at math." They probably would have been better served by taking it in 8th grade since there's no college advantage to taking it sooner. It might help their math foundations and their overall math self concept. This might have happened to my eldest kid. I just went with the flow and had him take Algebra 1H in 7th--he had a 93 on the IAAT, pass advanced on the SOL and teacher recommended it. Was young for his grade (summer birthday). Got a B, thought about doing a retake of it in 8th, but was told "B's are very good, I was being too perfectionist etc.". So I let it slide. He got As and Bs in his advanced math/AP classes, but went from being super interested in engineering to thinking himself not good enough in math for it. Plus the Bs did close some college options for him as they were his lowest grades. Got a 740 in math on his first try on the SAT, but still just felt like he didn't like math and wasn't good enough at it to pursue a STEM major. For my second kid with nearly identical scores, I recommended waiting until 8th (also a summer birthday, so young for grade). She seems to be more confident in herself and is sustaining her STEM interest better and so far has gotten As in math. Just two data points on a complex subject of course, but something to consider.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 13:22     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
SOL data suggests that majority of FCPS kids do fine after taking Algebra 1 in 7th grade. Before covid, 13-14% of FCPS 7th graders took Algebra 1 in 7th and 11-12% took Algebra 2 in 9th. Thus, a few may leave the track, but the majority are still there and they appear to be doing well. Again, before covid, roughly 80% of FCPS students taking Algebra 2 in 9th grade scored pass advanced on their SOL. (And this share would likely be higher absent content coverage quirks -- some teachers opt not to spend much time on statistics in order to better prepare kids for Precalculus and Calculus content.) SOL scores have fallen post-covid but that reflects learning loss.
https://p1pe.doe.virginia.gov/apex_captcha/home.do?apexTypeId=306
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 12:05     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?


It depends on what you child is going to pursue in college and what level of school you wish them to attend. If STEM then 7th, if not STEM then either 8th or 9th is fine, unless seeking a top 30-40 college then the answer is back to 7th.
This is not true. You can take Algebra 1 in 8th grade and absolutely still major in a STEM field if you wanted to… You could even take Calculus 1 in college if you had to. Calc1 is offered in college. This big push for rapid acceleration is not necessary. Kids are born at all times of the year. So, a kid whose birthday falls at the end of grade and who was not red-listed could still major in a STEM field. This is not a one and done opportunity in middle school. The sky is not falling if your kid took Algebra 1 in 8th grade. In fact, in the 90’s, taking Algebra 1 in 8th grade was considered Advanced. It’s much better for your kid to build a very solid math foundation rather than rushing to a higher course. Your child’s brain is developing far into their 20’s and this isn’t a race. It’s a sequential journey of additional learned concepts and it’s much better to have a clear understanding at each step. I’m flabbergasted at how little math the college students have actually retained. —college professor


MIT has Calculus 1 and Calculus 2 with hundreds of students.

Likely most are repeating it from high school and the course will be paced accordingly.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 11:21     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:My kid is in AAP but she is much more of a humanities kid so we opted for Honors Math & vs. Algebra I. She said it was super easy and just a review of what she learned in advanced math in 6th. I think Algebra I in 7th makes sense for kids who really have a natural aptitude for math. I've heard from teachers that a lot of kids who were pushed into Algebra I in 7th go on to struggle in higher level maths in HS. I don't think advanced math in FCPS is that great in ES-they focus on acceleration vs. depth.


Another parent here who wishes the push was for more foundation and not acceleration. At least there are options to elect in and out. Would be sad if kids locked in to you are STEM and you are not at age 12.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 10:39     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
My kid is in AAP but she is much more of a humanities kid so we opted for Honors Math & vs. Algebra I. She said it was super easy and just a review of what she learned in advanced math in 6th. I think Algebra I in 7th makes sense for kids who really have a natural aptitude for math. I've heard from teachers that a lot of kids who were pushed into Algebra I in 7th go on to struggle in higher level maths in HS. I don't think advanced math in FCPS is that great in ES-they focus on acceleration vs. depth.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 10:33     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?


It depends on what you child is going to pursue in college and what level of school you wish them to attend. If STEM then 7th, if not STEM then either 8th or 9th is fine, unless seeking a top 30-40 college then the answer is back to 7th.


This is not true. It's an opinion. My kid went from "Gen Ed" math in ES, to Math 7 HN, to ALG 1 HN. Kid is in 11th this year. She's taking AP Pre-Calc/Trig. She's doing STEM and will be FINE.

Some parents (and maybe their kids, but lbh, it's the parents) push advanced math way to soon. I know lots of kids that failed doing this and had to take Alg 1 over or flamed out of math. Sure, I know a few geniuses doing well but they are well overshadowed by those that did not.


It's not too soon. It used to be the standard advanced track before everyone had to be advanced. Lots of kids can handle it and thrive. The kids who struggle are those who are pushed into because their parents can't accept that they aren't on that track.




I didn't say kids couldn't handle it. Some can, as I clearly state. However, my own experience is that is very few. I know several very bright kids who flamed out in taking Alg 1 too soon.

Algebra 1 in 8th grade was not standard back in the day where I grew up. So I also disagree with that statement.


I went through MCPS 30 years ago and algebra 1 in 7th was standard for kids on the top track. There where outliers taking it in 6th, but the largest number of GT kids took it in 7th


30 years ago the GT track in MCPS represented the top 2%--so, yes, you might expect a significant portion of the top 2% of kids to take it early. But kids well beyond the top 2% get into STEM programs and get into colleges in the top 30-40.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 10:25     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?


It depends on what you child is going to pursue in college and what level of school you wish them to attend. If STEM then 7th, if not STEM then either 8th or 9th is fine, unless seeking a top 30-40 college then the answer is back to 7th.


This is not true. It's an opinion. My kid went from "Gen Ed" math in ES, to Math 7 HN, to ALG 1 HN. Kid is in 11th this year. She's taking AP Pre-Calc/Trig. She's doing STEM and will be FINE.

Some parents (and maybe their kids, but lbh, it's the parents) push advanced math way to soon. I know lots of kids that failed doing this and had to take Alg 1 over or flamed out of math. Sure, I know a few geniuses doing well but they are well overshadowed by those that did not.


It's not too soon. It used to be the standard advanced track before everyone had to be advanced. Lots of kids can handle it and thrive. The kids who struggle are those who are pushed into because their parents can't accept that they aren't on that track.




I didn't say kids couldn't handle it. Some can, as I clearly state. However, my own experience is that is very few. I know several very bright kids who flamed out in taking Alg 1 too soon.

Algebra 1 in 8th grade was not standard back in the day where I grew up. So I also disagree with that statement.


I went through MCPS 30 years ago and algebra 1 in 7th was standard for kids on the top track. There where outliers taking it in 6th, but the largest number of GT kids took it in 7th
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 10:23     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?


It depends on what you child is going to pursue in college and what level of school you wish them to attend. If STEM then 7th, if not STEM then either 8th or 9th is fine, unless seeking a top 30-40 college then the answer is back to 7th.


This is not true. It's an opinion. My kid went from "Gen Ed" math in ES, to Math 7 HN, to ALG 1 HN. Kid is in 11th this year. She's taking AP Pre-Calc/Trig. She's doing STEM and will be FINE.

Some parents (and maybe their kids, but lbh, it's the parents) push advanced math way to soon. I know lots of kids that failed doing this and had to take Alg 1 over or flamed out of math. Sure, I know a few geniuses doing well but they are well overshadowed by those that did not.


It's not too soon. It used to be the standard advanced track before everyone had to be advanced. Lots of kids can handle it and thrive. The kids who struggle are those who are pushed into because their parents can't accept that they aren't on that track.


I didn't say kids couldn't handle it. Some can, as I clearly state. However, my own experience is that is very few. I know several very bright kids who flamed out in taking Alg 1 too soon.

Algebra 1 in 8th grade was not standard back in the day where I grew up. So I also disagree with that statement.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 08:35     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?


It depends on what you child is going to pursue in college and what level of school you wish them to attend. If STEM then 7th, if not STEM then either 8th or 9th is fine, unless seeking a top 30-40 college then the answer is back to 7th.


This is not true. It's an opinion. My kid went from "Gen Ed" math in ES, to Math 7 HN, to ALG 1 HN. Kid is in 11th this year. She's taking AP Pre-Calc/Trig. She's doing STEM and will be FINE.

Some parents (and maybe their kids, but lbh, it's the parents) push advanced math way to soon. I know lots of kids that failed doing this and had to take Alg 1 over or flamed out of math. Sure, I know a few geniuses doing well but they are well overshadowed by those that did not.


It's not too soon. It used to be the standard advanced track before everyone had to be advanced. Lots of kids can handle it and thrive. The kids who struggle are those who are pushed into because their parents can't accept that they aren't on that track.
Anonymous
Post 08/16/2023 08:31     Subject: algebra 1 - which year?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do most FCPS kids take algebra 1 in 8th or 9th? If 8th, do they first have to take honors math in 7th?


It depends on what you child is going to pursue in college and what level of school you wish them to attend. If STEM then 7th, if not STEM then either 8th or 9th is fine, unless seeking a top 30-40 college then the answer is back to 7th.


This is not true. It's an opinion. My kid went from "Gen Ed" math in ES, to Math 7 HN, to ALG 1 HN. Kid is in 11th this year. She's taking AP Pre-Calc/Trig. She's doing STEM and will be FINE.

Some parents (and maybe their kids, but lbh, it's the parents) push advanced math way to soon. I know lots of kids that failed doing this and had to take Alg 1 over or flamed out of math. Sure, I know a few geniuses doing well but they are well overshadowed by those that did not.


What class will she take next year? This looks like a bad course selection. AP Precalculus should be limited to 12th grade, because it is intended for students who take it as their last math class in high school. It is not a proper prerequisite for calculus. Loudoun will not let you take Calculus BC after this class, but does allow AB(but shouldn't).


Her course selection is fine. She'll take Calculus next year, not sure which one. And it will be fine. She has straight As in her math sequence and, even better, has developed a wonderful math sense overall. So we are comfortable with where she is, her options, etc. But thanks for the "Concern."