Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:University of Rochester
https://www.rochester.edu/about/curriculum.html

+1

My kid loves the cluster/open curriculum---in engineering so not as much "openness" as a Arts&Sciences degree. But it is a place where kids truly take courses for the love of learning---and don't have to take a history course specifically for "core curriculum" unless it interests them.

It's so expensive $$$$

Iowa six-week abortion limit will sink their application #s

Grinnell has an open curriculum.

Anonymous wrote:Just saw a poster in another thread say that Smith has gen ed requirements too, to graduate with honors…wondering which “open curriculum” schools truly are open curriculum…

I think Vassar is. Posted about this early in the thread but will recap briefly. Students must take one "quantitative" course, one freshman writing seminar (subjects for these vary widely!) and a language -- I think the term is "proficiency" so some students probably test out of taking a language course. So, three requirements, two of which are very flexible in themselves. The quantitative course can be math etc. but also certain social sciences classes fill that requirement, etc.

I have no idea about the "you must do X to graduate with honors" thing people are mentioning at Smith and elsewhere; my DC who graduated from Vassar never mentioned that and I never saw it on the website. Definitely DC had many friends who graduated with double majors or a major plus a minor (and DC had a major and two minors).

Anonymous wrote:My kid is at Hamilton, which has an open curriculum (but has concentrations). During the parent orientation, we were told there are two types of kids that like the open curriculum: one that uses the open curriculum to really delve into a particular topic, and a second that doesn't have specific interests, and uses the open curriculum explore different fields. There are no express language requirements, but not studying a language precludes a kid from many of the study abroad programs.

So it sounds like Hamilton does have what I would deem a “real” open curriculum, unlike Smith and, especially, Wesleyan.

My kid is at Hamilton, which has an open curriculum (but has concentrations). During the parent orientation, we were told there are two types of kids that like the open curriculum: one that uses the open curriculum to really delve into a particular topic, and a second that doesn't have specific interests, and uses the open curriculum explore different fields. There are no express language requirements, but not studying a language precludes a kid from many of the study abroad programs.

Just saw a poster in another thread say that Smith has gen ed requirements too, to graduate with honors…wondering which “open curriculum” schools truly are open curriculum…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks everyone.
It still means she gets a degree with a concentration, correct? I am a biy worried of her employability.

Look at Vassar. DC just graduated from Vassar. Your DD should visit, based on what you describe!

Open curriculum: The only "general" requirements are (1) a quantitative course, (2) a first-year writing seminar and (3) language proficiency (which many students can test out of). The quantiative course does not necessarily mean math; it can apply to other courses like certain social sciences, for instance. The writing seminars are extremely wide-ranging. After those three highly flexible requirements, the student has wide choices.
https://offices.vassar.edu/educational-assessment/learning-goals-vassar-degree/
https://www.vassar.edu/admission/explore/academics/

When you say "a degree with a concentration" are you asking if there are majors? Absolutely. And in her major program your DD will have plenty of requirements so it's not as if students are taking whatever, willy-nilly. But it seemed to us (and DC agrees) that it's pretty common for students there have majors and also earn minors (called correlates). DC graduated with a major and two minors and knew several students who, for example, had a science major and an arts minor etc. Think, biochemistry major with a music composition minor, for instance. The open curriculum and lack general college requirements mean students have more flexibility to do minors across different disciplines.

East Coast. Very LGBTQ+ friendly. A lot of student organizations and plenty to do on campus at weekends etc. Not much off-campus life, as the part of the city near campus is quiet with just a handful of restauarants right by Vassar, but there are all the usual movie theaters, malls, etc. and the great historic stuff all over the Hudson Valley.

Also, if this matters to you, nearly 100 percent of students live on campus--there is just not really rental property anywhere near campus plus the lovely campus has sufficient housing. The big benefit is that there is none of the stressful business of having to fight to get a place to live off-campus after freshman or sophomore year like at some huge universities. Really reduced DC's stress, compared to DC's friends at some universities who were booking the next school year's apartments in October of their freshman year and so on. And Vassar housing includes various configurations of townhouses and houses, not just large dorms.

Post if you have any questions, OP, and we'll try to help if your DC is interested.

We are visiting Boston colleges this summer. We will find a way to swing by Vassar. It looks like it checks a lotmof her boxes. Thank you for the thoughtful answer.
Dd loves writing and theater but is looking for a way to indulge her passions and still have a plan B, so is thinking an open curriculum might be the answer. She goes to a smallish school. I wonder how she would fare at a larger college. She is also good at math and I haven’t given up hoping that she will embrace that other side of her.

Have her look at WPI as well as the other choices, since you are heading to Boston. My kid was similar, wanted open curriculum, theater but also had a math side, and WPI was a surprise fit along with other mentioned here.

DP. I would not consider this if theatre is a key aspect.

Theatre has been a god send to her, so yes a key aspect. I thought WPI was mainly a STEM school?

My son is at WPI and yes, it is mainly a STEM school.
Pretty much all majors are STEM, though this does include the straight sciences such as Chemistry, Geology, Math. They have a business, general humanities major , and a psych major, but that's pretty much where all the kids who change their minds/majors fall, that don't want to transfer but don't want engineering/STEM anymore. You don't go there to be in those majors (for the most part, obviously this is a generalization).

I just looked at the Planner for this year--there are 10 Theatre classes, which include 3 or 4 Tech Theatre courses. To be a music, dance, or theatre minor it looks like you take two courses, participate in 2 productions and do a capstone project. Minors are typically 6 classes (any minor).

As far as to clarify the open curriculum, there are definitely gen ed requirements.
Humanities: 5 courses plus a practicum/inquiry seminar. 3 courses in a "depth" and two in any category. My son took 3 history classes of his choosing this year and will pick any history related practicum next spring that works for him. (he did learn a lesson in taking a junior level history without a particular interest in history, and was stretched as a first year student, but it was good for him!) I think next year he has Intro Philosophy and a writing class. You can also take 6 classes in a foreign language and that counts for all of your humanities.
Social science: two courses (he used AP credits in psych and econ)
PE/Wellness: four courses
IQP: this is a 9 credit interdisciplinary project junior year, which is either abroad or domestic and does not include any actual class time. You pick where you want to go, apply, and get assigned a location/project.
MQP: this is a Senior/major related capstone project worth 9 credits.

WPI does not have prerequisites for any class, although there may be suggested coursework/knowledge. You are more than welcome to sign up for any class--if you fail it, there is no grade below a C recorded--it is just expunged from your record. You can do this maybe 2 times (not sure) and still be on track to graduate in 4 years. My rising sophomore is taking a graduate level CS class next fall, and this will doublecount for his BS and his MS that he can get in 4 years. In his first year he was able to take 5 CS classes, which is almost unheard of at most engineering schools where your curriculum is more set in stone. Now, CS is definitely the most flexible major. If you are majoring in aero or robotics there is less flexibility with your major coursework but you get the same flexibility with your gen eds. Also they are pretty open to Independent Study- my son has already done one as a freshman (a CS credit)- just need a prof to sign off on it. He had robotics majors friends that were also doing it (they ended up working together on some stuff which is how he ended up with an IS as a freshman).

Hope that helps.

Anonymous wrote:I know lots have mentioned Wesleyan: they call themselves an open curriculum school — and I thought they were too — but they are not one. They have gen ed “expectations” that a student take 3 courses each in three areas — so a total of 9 courses, or over a year of coursework. What if those “expectations” are not met? Well, first off, some majors require that these gen ED credits are met.

For all other majors, they punish you: no graduating with honors if you don’t do the gen ed’s, no thesis allowed, and no double major with a minor — let alone a triple major.

Never saw such a two-tiered, gen-ed system system before where students who truly want an open curriculum are treated as second-class citizens. It’s bizarre, and, to me, smacks of poor leadership: either have an open curriculum or don’t. Wesleyan is trying to have its cake and eat it, too.

If a student really wants an open curriculum, and might want to do a thesis or graduate with honors, stay away from Wesleyan’s 9-course gen ed requirements. Plenty of other open curriculum options to choose from….

When I went to Wesleyan in the 90s I was one course short in science. I had to get some form signed and the professor who signed it gave me a short lecture. That was it. I still graduated with honors etc. But when my DS was looking at open curriculum schools we noticed that Wesleyan had changed as explained above. He chose a different school with a true open curriculum. But even at his school his advisor pressures him to take classes in all divisions. It’s great that he doesn’t have specific gen Ed requirements but there is still an expectation that he take a mix which includes courses he’s not interested in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know lots have mentioned Wesleyan: they call themselves an open curriculum school — and I thought they were too — but they are not one. They have gen ed “expectations” that a student take 3 courses each in three areas — so a total of 9 courses, or over a year of coursework. What if those “expectations” are not met? Well, first off, some majors require that these gen ED credits are met.

For all other majors, they punish you: no graduating with honors if you don’t do the gen ed’s, no thesis allowed, and no double major with a minor — let alone a triple major.

Never saw such a two-tiered, gen-ed system system before where students who truly want an open curriculum are treated as second-class citizens. It’s bizarre, and, to me, smacks of poor leadership: either have an open curriculum or don’t. Wesleyan is trying to have its cake and eat it, too.

If a student really wants an open curriculum, and might want to do a thesis or graduate with honors, stay away from Wesleyan’s 9-course gen ed requirements. Plenty of other open curriculum options to choose from….

Re: the bold -- Full disclosure, I don't have a kid looking at Wes (or anywhere as DC has already graduated from an open curriculum LAC) but I don't quite get that paragraph, PP. Is it a done thing at Wes to go for a double major with a minor or even a triple major? I've never even heard of anyone doing a triple major anywhere at all (open curriculum or not; that's not the point of my question, BTW). Are you saying it's a "punishment" to be denied the chance to do a double major, double plus a minor or even a triple? All of those are difficult anywhere and I'm not clear on what you mean by framing it as a punishment by the college to deny those to students.
Asking seriously, not with any snark -- because it's impossible to tell tone in a post! Thanks.

Yes, it is a punishment not to be able to major in certain subjects, graduate with honors, be prohibited from writing a thesis, and not double major with a minor. (Not to mention the advisor pressure to “meet expectations” that is obviously also brought to bear — and these advisors are often future job and graduate school recommenders.) Double majors with minors are way more common these days than a generation ago. But the main problem is the thesis and honors issues, and the two-tiered treatment of students generally — never heard of such a thing.

As an aside, I found this out last night reading the “Fiske Guide” for Wesleyan, which describes somewhat extensive general education distribution requirements/expectations. Surely Fiske was wrong, I thought, as everyone knows Wesleyan has an “open curriculum.” But Fiske was right.

If my explanation is confusing, take a look at Wesleyan’s convoluted website and their discussion of what they call their “open curriculum.” It reads as deliberately confusing and even downright disingenuous.

Anonymous wrote:I know lots have mentioned Wesleyan: they call themselves an open curriculum school — and I thought they were too — but they are not one. They have gen ed “expectations” that a student take 3 courses each in three areas — so a total of 9 courses, or over a year of coursework. What if those “expectations” are not met? Well, first off, some majors require that these gen ED credits are met.

For all other majors, they punish you: no graduating with honors if you don’t do the gen ed’s, no thesis allowed, and no double major with a minor — let alone a triple major.

Never saw such a two-tiered, gen-ed system system before where students who truly want an open curriculum are treated as second-class citizens. It’s bizarre, and, to me, smacks of poor leadership: either have an open curriculum or don’t. Wesleyan is trying to have its cake and eat it, too.

If a student really wants an open curriculum, and might want to do a thesis or graduate with honors, stay away from Wesleyan’s 9-course gen ed requirements. Plenty of other open curriculum options to choose from….

Re: the bold -- Full disclosure, I don't have a kid looking at Wes (or anywhere as DC has already graduated from an open curriculum LAC) but I don't quite get that paragraph, PP. Is it a done thing at Wes to go for a double major with a minor or even a triple major? I've never even heard of anyone doing a triple major anywhere at all (open curriculum or not; that's not the point of my question, BTW). Are you saying it's a "punishment" to be denied the chance to do a double major, double plus a minor or even a triple? All of those are difficult anywhere and I'm not clear on what you mean by framing it as a punishment by the college to deny those to students.
Asking seriously, not with any snark -- because it's impossible to tell tone in a post! Thanks.

I know lots have mentioned Wesleyan: they call themselves an open curriculum school — and I thought they were too — but they are not one. They have gen ed “expectations” that a student take 3 courses each in three areas — so a total of 9 courses, or over a year of coursework. What if those “expectations” are not met? Well, first off, some majors require that these gen ED credits are met.

For all other majors, they punish you: no graduating with honors if you don’t do the gen ed’s, no thesis allowed, and no double major with a minor — let alone a triple major.

Never saw such a two-tiered, gen-ed system system before where students who truly want an open curriculum are treated as second-class citizens. It’s bizarre, and, to me, smacks of poor leadership: either have an open curriculum or don’t. Wesleyan is trying to have its cake and eat it, too.

If a student really wants an open curriculum, and might want to do a thesis or graduate with honors, stay away from Wesleyan’s 9-course gen ed requirements. Plenty of other open curriculum options to choose from….

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks everyone.
It still means she gets a degree with a concentration, correct? I am a biy worried of her employability.

Look at Vassar. DC just graduated from Vassar. Your DD should visit, based on what you describe!

Open curriculum: The only "general" requirements are (1) a quantitative course, (2) a first-year writing seminar and (3) language proficiency (which many students can test out of). The quantiative course does not necessarily mean math; it can apply to other courses like certain social sciences, for instance. The writing seminars are extremely wide-ranging. After those three highly flexible requirements, the student has wide choices.
https://offices.vassar.edu/educational-assessment/learning-goals-vassar-degree/
https://www.vassar.edu/admission/explore/academics/

When you say "a degree with a concentration" are you asking if there are majors? Absolutely. And in her major program your DD will have plenty of requirements so it's not as if students are taking whatever, willy-nilly. But it seemed to us (and DC agrees) that it's pretty common for students there have majors and also earn minors (called correlates). DC graduated with a major and two minors and knew several students who, for example, had a science major and an arts minor etc. Think, biochemistry major with a music composition minor, for instance. The open curriculum and lack general college requirements mean students have more flexibility to do minors across different disciplines.

East Coast. Very LGBTQ+ friendly. A lot of student organizations and plenty to do on campus at weekends etc. Not much off-campus life, as the part of the city near campus is quiet with just a handful of restauarants right by Vassar, but there are all the usual movie theaters, malls, etc. and the great historic stuff all over the Hudson Valley.

Also, if this matters to you, nearly 100 percent of students live on campus--there is just not really rental property anywhere near campus plus the lovely campus has sufficient housing. The big benefit is that there is none of the stressful business of having to fight to get a place to live off-campus after freshman or sophomore year like at some huge universities. Really reduced DC's stress, compared to DC's friends at some universities who were booking the next school year's apartments in October of their freshman year and so on. And Vassar housing includes various configurations of townhouses and houses, not just large dorms.

Post if you have any questions, OP, and we'll try to help if your DC is interested.

We are visiting Boston colleges this summer. We will find a way to swing by Vassar. It looks like it checks a lotmof her boxes. Thank you for the thoughtful answer.
Dd loves writing and theater but is looking for a way to indulge her passions and still have a plan B, so is thinking an open curriculum might be the answer. She goes to a smallish school. I wonder how she would fare at a larger college. She is also good at math and I haven’t given up hoping that she will embrace that other side of her.

Have her look at WPI as well as the other choices, since you are heading to Boston. My kid was similar, wanted open curriculum, theater but also had a math side, and WPI was a surprise fit along with other mentioned here.

DP. I would not consider this if theatre is a key aspect.

Theatre has been a god send to her, so yes a key aspect. I thought WPI was mainly a STEM school?

It is an engineering school, but like most engineering schools, they have everything. Lot's of kids double major or minor in the arts. They also have a big music program. Here is the academic theater page: https://users.wpi.edu/~theatre/index.html, and they also have active student theater groups in musicals, theater, comedy film, etc. I mean, if you wanted to major in theater and go on to Hollywood, it probably isn't the first choice, but if you are interesting in a bit of everything, it has it. Most engineering schools are well aware that engineering students have a creative side that needs to be nurtured.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks everyone.
It still means she gets a degree with a concentration, correct? I am a biy worried of her employability.

Look at Vassar. DC just graduated from Vassar. Your DD should visit, based on what you describe!

Open curriculum: The only "general" requirements are (1) a quantitative course, (2) a first-year writing seminar and (3) language proficiency (which many students can test out of). The quantiative course does not necessarily mean math; it can apply to other courses like certain social sciences, for instance. The writing seminars are extremely wide-ranging. After those three highly flexible requirements, the student has wide choices.
https://offices.vassar.edu/educational-assessment/learning-goals-vassar-degree/
https://www.vassar.edu/admission/explore/academics/

When you say "a degree with a concentration" are you asking if there are majors? Absolutely. And in her major program your DD will have plenty of requirements so it's not as if students are taking whatever, willy-nilly. But it seemed to us (and DC agrees) that it's pretty common for students there have majors and also earn minors (called correlates). DC graduated with a major and two minors and knew several students who, for example, had a science major and an arts minor etc. Think, biochemistry major with a music composition minor, for instance. The open curriculum and lack general college requirements mean students have more flexibility to do minors across different disciplines.

East Coast. Very LGBTQ+ friendly. A lot of student organizations and plenty to do on campus at weekends etc. Not much off-campus life, as the part of the city near campus is quiet with just a handful of restauarants right by Vassar, but there are all the usual movie theaters, malls, etc. and the great historic stuff all over the Hudson Valley.

Also, if this matters to you, nearly 100 percent of students live on campus--there is just not really rental property anywhere near campus plus the lovely campus has sufficient housing. The big benefit is that there is none of the stressful business of having to fight to get a place to live off-campus after freshman or sophomore year like at some huge universities. Really reduced DC's stress, compared to DC's friends at some universities who were booking the next school year's apartments in October of their freshman year and so on. And Vassar housing includes various configurations of townhouses and houses, not just large dorms.

Post if you have any questions, OP, and we'll try to help if your DC is interested.

We are visiting Boston colleges this summer. We will find a way to swing by Vassar. It looks like it checks a lotmof her boxes. Thank you for the thoughtful answer.
Dd loves writing and theater but is looking for a way to indulge her passions and still have a plan B, so is thinking an open curriculum might be the answer. She goes to a smallish school. I wonder how she would fare at a larger college. She is also good at math and I haven’t given up hoping that she will embrace that other side of her.

Have her look at WPI as well as the other choices, since you are heading to Boston. My kid was similar, wanted open curriculum, theater but also had a math side, and WPI was a surprise fit along with other mentioned here.

DP. I would not consider this if theatre is a key aspect.

Theatre has been a god send to her, so yes a key aspect. I thought WPI was mainly a STEM school?

It's engineering is strong, but it does have a variety of majors. Still, I don't think there is a vibrant theatre scene there.

I recommended Wes earlier. Also, Vassar. My eldest, interested math, music and theatre, liked both of these.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want to focus on a concentration and not do distribution requirements, go to school in Europe where people get their PhDs 2+ years earlier than in the US because they did all their distribution requirements in high school.

Or never did distribution requirements at all, as in the UK where they study only 3 subjects the last two years of high school.

Whoa!

Well, only require 3 subjects.

https://www.gov.uk/national-curriculum/key-stage-3-and-4

(Each stage is 2 years)