Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are working on a summer bridge activities workbook this summer for my rising 5th grader and my kid knows nothing about grammar (doesn’t know pronouns, where commas go, etc) in any of the activities. I’m assuming it’s normally taught in other elementary schools since it’s included int he workbook?

How do kids learn grammar? And how will they learn foreign languages when they don’t know any grammar. I’m trying to teach the kid as we go through the workbook but curious what is going on.

In our experience, not really. Not in any meaningful way. There may be a passing quiz or worksheet on something (e.g., comma usage) but not a thorough grammar curriculum. I asked my kid once, in MS, if they could describe what an adjective was. This kid is an honors and AP student. They could not tell me or describe what an adjective was.

Add on that, the teachers do not provide line edit reviews to correct grammar on written work. A huge problem for me as that is one of the best ways to learn. Instead they use those foolish "rubrics." I know there is a lot of arguments on this point on this site. But without this sort of feedback you simply cannot properly teach grammar and writing. And it's just not done in FCPS.

I disagree. I have asked both my kids every day after school what they have learned in each class and they have walked me through it. (I do this to help solidify their learning and to give me insight on what they are doing in school). Line edits are not the only ways to learn to write--they have also sorts of targeted interactive worksheets where they correct incorrect grammar in pre-written sentences and circle parts of speech and the like. I think the "No red ink" program is a reasonably strong way to teach grammar/writing that varies from the traditional line editing practice (which is not possible to do well given the class sizes/teacher workload). And, really, as computer programs improve, using word processers are increasingly becoming like having a constant line editor.
Writing is a significant portion of my professional work and I think it's being taught reasonably well. Sure, I'd love to have my kids receive detailed feedback on all their written work, but I don't think the FCPS approach is foolish.

You can disagree with your kids' experience but have no basis to disagree with mine.
As for approach, we will have to agree to disagree. I think their approach is not effective at all.

Have you looked at NoRedInk which is what FCPS uses (or at least teachers) for writing support in MS (and some in upper ES)? It's a writing tool where teachers provide lots of modelling, feedback and editing--and then they discuss it in their writing conferences. You can look at it on line and assess it yourself if you haven't.

No red ink is worthless for kids who don't have a basic understanding of grammar and parts of speech, especially since many teachers use it in lieu of grammar instruction instead of as a supplement.

Teacher PP. To be fair, this IS the grammar instruction the county wants them to use. Why? Because they paid for it and it tracks data which is what districts want. Data data data. How many minutes did they use it? How much did they grow? The issue is as you say, it is not enough for standalone writing instruction. It isn’t how kids learn grammar.

I also HATE how the program can’t be leveled by vocab and they create examples using the interests the kids have to choose from their provided (outdated) list. So a kid randomly selects The Simpsons and then all the questions say stuff like “Santa’s Little Helper wanted to kayak in the Niagara Falls.” Okay. The kid has no idea Santa’s Little Helper is a dog and therefore a name and the subject of the sentence. If they’ve never kayaked, this word is unknown to them. Why use niche vocab like that? I used NRI once as a baseline diagnostic and it said nobody knew what adjectives are. I was so confused til I looked at the results: the questions asking the kids to identify adjectives all used pronouns as adjectives. Like “Mrs Smith took her painting home.” In this example, her is an adjective but that’s sneaky and tricky for no reason because most kids associate “her” with a pronoun and an adjective with a more vivid descriptor.

Ugh I hate No Red Ink so much.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are working on a summer bridge activities workbook this summer for my rising 5th grader and my kid knows nothing about grammar (doesn’t know pronouns, where commas go, etc) in any of the activities. I’m assuming it’s normally taught in other elementary schools since it’s included int he workbook?

How do kids learn grammar? And how will they learn foreign languages when they don’t know any grammar. I’m trying to teach the kid as we go through the workbook but curious what is going on.

In our experience, not really. Not in any meaningful way. There may be a passing quiz or worksheet on something (e.g., comma usage) but not a thorough grammar curriculum. I asked my kid once, in MS, if they could describe what an adjective was. This kid is an honors and AP student. They could not tell me or describe what an adjective was.

Add on that, the teachers do not provide line edit reviews to correct grammar on written work. A huge problem for me as that is one of the best ways to learn. Instead they use those foolish "rubrics." I know there is a lot of arguments on this point on this site. But without this sort of feedback you simply cannot properly teach grammar and writing. And it's just not done in FCPS.

I disagree. I have asked both my kids every day after school what they have learned in each class and they have walked me through it. (I do this to help solidify their learning and to give me insight on what they are doing in school). Line edits are not the only ways to learn to write--they have also sorts of targeted interactive worksheets where they correct incorrect grammar in pre-written sentences and circle parts of speech and the like. I think the "No red ink" program is a reasonably strong way to teach grammar/writing that varies from the traditional line editing practice (which is not possible to do well given the class sizes/teacher workload). And, really, as computer programs improve, using word processers are increasingly becoming like having a constant line editor.
Writing is a significant portion of my professional work and I think it's being taught reasonably well. Sure, I'd love to have my kids receive detailed feedback on all their written work, but I don't think the FCPS approach is foolish.

You can disagree with your kids' experience but have no basis to disagree with mine.
As for approach, we will have to agree to disagree. I think their approach is not effective at all.

Have you looked at NoRedInk which is what FCPS uses (or at least teachers) for writing support in MS (and some in upper ES)? It's a writing tool where teachers provide lots of modelling, feedback and editing--and then they discuss it in their writing conferences. You can look at it on line and assess it yourself if you haven't.

No red ink is worthless for kids who don't have a basic understanding of grammar and parts of speech, especially since many teachers use it in lieu of grammar instruction instead of as a supplement.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really.

The 9th grade teacher tried desperately to catch the kids up this year. Bless her. But she never should have had to do that in a high school honors class.

The class of 2026 kids are so behind on so many basic things that were never a concern for my older kkds, even the one just a couple years older.

The kids who lost the end of 6th grade and mkst of middle school over pandemic are so screwed by the shut down.

I suspect that cluster of grades, plus the kids who did K-2nd grade over pandemkc are going to have lifelong impacts due to the idiotic pandemic school decisions, school closures, lowering of standards, and over reliance on screens to teach.

Those specific grades were at critical learning and transition stages that you cannot get back.

How was it most of middle school? It was 75% of one year, so closer to 38%.

What? They lost a third of the school year with school closing in March, and the whole next school year was almost entirely online, and not real school at all when they finally returned, barely. And there has been an insane increase in use of 'screens' during the school day post-covid.

Why did they not receive real school?

March 2020 through June 2021.

My kid learned some but improved greatly while taking Latin in HS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are working on a summer bridge activities workbook this summer for my rising 5th grader and my kid knows nothing about grammar (doesn’t know pronouns, where commas go, etc) in any of the activities. I’m assuming it’s normally taught in other elementary schools since it’s included int he workbook?

How do kids learn grammar? And how will they learn foreign languages when they don’t know any grammar. I’m trying to teach the kid as we go through the workbook but curious what is going on.

In our experience, not really. Not in any meaningful way. There may be a passing quiz or worksheet on something (e.g., comma usage) but not a thorough grammar curriculum. I asked my kid once, in MS, if they could describe what an adjective was. This kid is an honors and AP student. They could not tell me or describe what an adjective was.

Add on that, the teachers do not provide line edit reviews to correct grammar on written work. A huge problem for me as that is one of the best ways to learn. Instead they use those foolish "rubrics." I know there is a lot of arguments on this point on this site. But without this sort of feedback you simply cannot properly teach grammar and writing. And it's just not done in FCPS.

I disagree. I have asked both my kids every day after school what they have learned in each class and they have walked me through it. (I do this to help solidify their learning and to give me insight on what they are doing in school). Line edits are not the only ways to learn to write--they have also sorts of targeted interactive worksheets where they correct incorrect grammar in pre-written sentences and circle parts of speech and the like. I think the "No red ink" program is a reasonably strong way to teach grammar/writing that varies from the traditional line editing practice (which is not possible to do well given the class sizes/teacher workload). And, really, as computer programs improve, using word processers are increasingly becoming like having a constant line editor.
Writing is a significant portion of my professional work and I think it's being taught reasonably well. Sure, I'd love to have my kids receive detailed feedback on all their written work, but I don't think the FCPS approach is foolish.

You can disagree with your kids' experience but have no basis to disagree with mine.
As for approach, we will have to agree to disagree. I think their approach is not effective at all.

Have you looked at NoRedInk which is what FCPS uses (or at least teachers) for writing support in MS (and some in upper ES)? It's a writing tool where teachers provide lots of modelling, feedback and editing--and then they discuss it in their writing conferences. You can look at it on line and assess it yourself if you haven't.

Oh boy. I’m the teacher who has been posting in this thread about terrible grammar instruction and NoRedInk is a HUGE part of why. I refuse to use it. It does NOT teach students effectively.

To be more clear- I teach high school English. NoRedInk does not work as a writing curriculum. It’s confusing and shows kids BAD grammar to correct rather than teaching them how GOOD grammar works. I teach grammar explicitly and don’t use NoRedInk. I teach my own children grammar separately at home because I know how much NRI is relied upon in the curriculum. It just isn’t effective.

So what do you use? My kids are in AAP and I really wish there was more emphasis on writing. It’s a little better in MS.

My kid just completed AAP 6th and they did a ton of writing this past year and did a lot with grammar and vocabulary.

my kid just completed AAP 6th and they did very little writing, did not have reading groups, did a ton of group project slide shows, and I never saw a grammar or vocabulary or spelling worksheet come home.

Well this is clearly teacher dependent. The AAP curriculum includes vocab and grammar (Michael Clay Thompson) and they had daily word study/spelling block for 15 minutes. They wrote a memoir, a literary nonfiction piece, newspaper article, poetry, research project, historical fiction and plays. They also wrote a DBQ essay and had many open ended assignments with writing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really.

The 9th grade teacher tried desperately to catch the kids up this year. Bless her. But she never should have had to do that in a high school honors class.

The class of 2026 kids are so behind on so many basic things that were never a concern for my older kkds, even the one just a couple years older.

The kids who lost the end of 6th grade and mkst of middle school over pandemic are so screwed by the shut down.

I suspect that cluster of grades, plus the kids who did K-2nd grade over pandemkc are going to have lifelong impacts due to the idiotic pandemic school decisions, school closures, lowering of standards, and over reliance on screens to teach.

Those specific grades were at critical learning and transition stages that you cannot get back.

My class is 2026 kid is actually better off than my class of 2028 kid (rising 8th grader). No doubt everyone was horribly impacted, but at least 2026 kids received elementary instruction before many of the “new” reading/writing changes happened.

What changes happened that made a difference between the class of ‘26 and ‘28? I’m an ES teacher and there weren’t really any changes until the science of reading changes over the past year or two which led to more focus on phonics and phonemic awareness

My younger one (‘28) came of reading age under Lucy Calkins, whereas my 2026 kid did not. We have actually since moved, and Science of Reading is not even incorporated or acknowledged in our new school system.

Its reading/writing workshop is awful.

My DC of grade 5 has not had any explicit instruction with grammar. They have not even taught them the parts of speech. The kids spelling is also negatively impacted by not practicing proper usage of homophones. There was NO vocabulary in 5th grade. This was a letdown from 4th grade. Their reading group only read 1 book the entire year last year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are working on a summer bridge activities workbook this summer for my rising 5th grader and my kid knows nothing about grammar (doesn’t know pronouns, where commas go, etc) in any of the activities. I’m assuming it’s normally taught in other elementary schools since it’s included int he workbook?

How do kids learn grammar? And how will they learn foreign languages when they don’t know any grammar. I’m trying to teach the kid as we go through the workbook but curious what is going on.

In our experience, not really. Not in any meaningful way. There may be a passing quiz or worksheet on something (e.g., comma usage) but not a thorough grammar curriculum. I asked my kid once, in MS, if they could describe what an adjective was. This kid is an honors and AP student. They could not tell me or describe what an adjective was.

Add on that, the teachers do not provide line edit reviews to correct grammar on written work. A huge problem for me as that is one of the best ways to learn. Instead they use those foolish "rubrics." I know there is a lot of arguments on this point on this site. But without this sort of feedback you simply cannot properly teach grammar and writing. And it's just not done in FCPS.

I disagree. I have asked both my kids every day after school what they have learned in each class and they have walked me through it. (I do this to help solidify their learning and to give me insight on what they are doing in school). Line edits are not the only ways to learn to write--they have also sorts of targeted interactive worksheets where they correct incorrect grammar in pre-written sentences and circle parts of speech and the like. I think the "No red ink" program is a reasonably strong way to teach grammar/writing that varies from the traditional line editing practice (which is not possible to do well given the class sizes/teacher workload). And, really, as computer programs improve, using word processers are increasingly becoming like having a constant line editor.
Writing is a significant portion of my professional work and I think it's being taught reasonably well. Sure, I'd love to have my kids receive detailed feedback on all their written work, but I don't think the FCPS approach is foolish.

You can disagree with your kids' experience but have no basis to disagree with mine.
As for approach, we will have to agree to disagree. I think their approach is not effective at all.

Have you looked at NoRedInk which is what FCPS uses (or at least teachers) for writing support in MS (and some in upper ES)? It's a writing tool where teachers provide lots of modelling, feedback and editing--and then they discuss it in their writing conferences. You can look at it on line and assess it yourself if you haven't.

Oh boy. I’m the teacher who has been posting in this thread about terrible grammar instruction and NoRedInk is a HUGE part of why. I refuse to use it. It does NOT teach students effectively.

To be more clear- I teach high school English. NoRedInk does not work as a writing curriculum. It’s confusing and shows kids BAD grammar to correct rather than teaching them how GOOD grammar works. I teach grammar explicitly and don’t use NoRedInk. I teach my own children grammar separately at home because I know how much NRI is relied upon in the curriculum. It just isn’t effective.

So what do you use? My kids are in AAP and I really wish there was more emphasis on writing. It’s a little better in MS.

My kid just completed AAP 6th and they did a ton of writing this past year and did a lot with grammar and vocabulary.

my kid just completed AAP 6th and they did very little writing, did not have reading groups, did a ton of group project slide shows, and I never saw a grammar or vocabulary or spelling worksheet come home.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are working on a summer bridge activities workbook this summer for my rising 5th grader and my kid knows nothing about grammar (doesn’t know pronouns, where commas go, etc) in any of the activities. I’m assuming it’s normally taught in other elementary schools since it’s included int he workbook?

How do kids learn grammar? And how will they learn foreign languages when they don’t know any grammar. I’m trying to teach the kid as we go through the workbook but curious what is going on.

In our experience, not really. Not in any meaningful way. There may be a passing quiz or worksheet on something (e.g., comma usage) but not a thorough grammar curriculum. I asked my kid once, in MS, if they could describe what an adjective was. This kid is an honors and AP student. They could not tell me or describe what an adjective was.

Add on that, the teachers do not provide line edit reviews to correct grammar on written work. A huge problem for me as that is one of the best ways to learn. Instead they use those foolish "rubrics." I know there is a lot of arguments on this point on this site. But without this sort of feedback you simply cannot properly teach grammar and writing. And it's just not done in FCPS.

I disagree. I have asked both my kids every day after school what they have learned in each class and they have walked me through it. (I do this to help solidify their learning and to give me insight on what they are doing in school). Line edits are not the only ways to learn to write--they have also sorts of targeted interactive worksheets where they correct incorrect grammar in pre-written sentences and circle parts of speech and the like. I think the "No red ink" program is a reasonably strong way to teach grammar/writing that varies from the traditional line editing practice (which is not possible to do well given the class sizes/teacher workload). And, really, as computer programs improve, using word processers are increasingly becoming like having a constant line editor.
Writing is a significant portion of my professional work and I think it's being taught reasonably well. Sure, I'd love to have my kids receive detailed feedback on all their written work, but I don't think the FCPS approach is foolish.

You can disagree with your kids' experience but have no basis to disagree with mine.
As for approach, we will have to agree to disagree. I think their approach is not effective at all.

Have you looked at NoRedInk which is what FCPS uses (or at least teachers) for writing support in MS (and some in upper ES)? It's a writing tool where teachers provide lots of modelling, feedback and editing--and then they discuss it in their writing conferences. You can look at it on line and assess it yourself if you haven't.

Oh boy. I’m the teacher who has been posting in this thread about terrible grammar instruction and NoRedInk is a HUGE part of why. I refuse to use it. It does NOT teach students effectively.

To be more clear- I teach high school English. NoRedInk does not work as a writing curriculum. It’s confusing and shows kids BAD grammar to correct rather than teaching them how GOOD grammar works. I teach grammar explicitly and don’t use NoRedInk. I teach my own children grammar separately at home because I know how much NRI is relied upon in the curriculum. It just isn’t effective.

So what do you use? My kids are in AAP and I really wish there was more emphasis on writing. It’s a little better in MS.

My kid just completed AAP 6th and they did a ton of writing this past year and did a lot with grammar and vocabulary.

Anonymous wrote:Elimination of homework

English teacher here. There isn’t really any homework needed for this content beyond reading WHICH kids should be doing at home at least 30 minutes a day, which almost none of my students do. If you think your class of 2028 kid isn’t doing well with reading/writing/grammar, more homework isn’t really the solution to that. You ensuring that at home they read more frequently and a variety of text lengths and genres and mediums is.

Yes there need to be changes made to the reading and writing curriculum, as I’ve mentioned throughout this thread, but truly, homework as practice really only applies to math, which requires consistent practice to master those concepts. The other content areas would be greatly enhanced not by more assignments at home but by more kids reading which builds their skills in using text features, vocabulary, reading stamina, awareness of what “good writing” looks and sounds like, and most importantly, gives them ways to connect what they read with other texts and their own experiences and what they see in the world.

Elimination of homework

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not really.

The 9th grade teacher tried desperately to catch the kids up this year. Bless her. But she never should have had to do that in a high school honors class.

The class of 2026 kids are so behind on so many basic things that were never a concern for my older kkds, even the one just a couple years older.

The kids who lost the end of 6th grade and mkst of middle school over pandemic are so screwed by the shut down.

I suspect that cluster of grades, plus the kids who did K-2nd grade over pandemkc are going to have lifelong impacts due to the idiotic pandemic school decisions, school closures, lowering of standards, and over reliance on screens to teach.

Those specific grades were at critical learning and transition stages that you cannot get back.

My class is 2026 kid is actually better off than my class of 2028 kid (rising 8th grader). No doubt everyone was horribly impacted, but at least 2026 kids received elementary instruction before many of the “new” reading/writing changes happened.

What changes happened that made a difference between the class of ‘26 and ‘28? I’m an ES teacher and there weren’t really any changes until the science of reading changes over the past year or two which led to more focus on phonics and phonemic awareness

Anonymous wrote:Not really.

The 9th grade teacher tried desperately to catch the kids up this year. Bless her. But she never should have had to do that in a high school honors class.

The class of 2026 kids are so behind on so many basic things that were never a concern for my older kkds, even the one just a couple years older.

The kids who lost the end of 6th grade and mkst of middle school over pandemic are so screwed by the shut down.

I suspect that cluster of grades, plus the kids who did K-2nd grade over pandemkc are going to have lifelong impacts due to the idiotic pandemic school decisions, school closures, lowering of standards, and over reliance on screens to teach.

Those specific grades were at critical learning and transition stages that you cannot get back.

My class is 2026 kid is actually better off than my class of 2028 kid (rising 8th grader). No doubt everyone was horribly impacted, but at least 2026 kids received elementary instruction before many of the “new” reading/writing changes happened.

I believe the AAP kids get short changed when it comes to grammar, and suspect it is true for much of FCPS. Both my kids were lucky and had a 9th grade English teacher that drove the concepts home and turned them into great writers.

By and large FCPS teachers try to accomplish the best they can with the fad of the day solution like NoRedInk but I guess the overhead at Gatehouse needs to feel like they are contributing when in reality they only make things worse.

Hope I got through this without making too many grammatical errors.