Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But then why did the hospital tell the mother and daughter they were lying about / making up the condition, and then billing their insurance for the treatment of this very condition? Is there no negligence / infliction on emotional distress in doing so?

To me, that’s an interesting question but the answer may be easily arguable and UNinteresting.
As in, can’t they claim they are observing her for this diagnosis, bc no other “explanation” can be found, but then also be skeptical that symptoms (absent the mother’s reminders) are not present to support it? It is not necessarily evidence that the hospital believes she has this condition—but rather they could argue that it’s evidence that they needed to enter a billing code and that is the closest they had to an explanation for why she is in the hospital at the time it was entered. What other code could they use? Is there an insurance billing code for “we think the diagnosis was based on symptoms that are imagined and pushed into the daughter by the mom—but we arent sure”? Maybe it should have been billed as psychiatric evaluation, but she was in the ICU, not psych ward…

At the end of the day, you could maybe argue insurance fraud? But that is a different lawsuit between the hospital and insurance company, right?

Maya has CRPS. She was diagnosed with it before she entered the hospital, and it was confirmed after Beata's death. The press accounts and the documentary briefly explain that it took her about two years of therapy and treatment after Beata's death before she was able to walk on her own. I understand that medical professionals are mandatory reporter, and that once the report is made, the matter might be mostly out of their hands. Still, after the report, Maya remained their patient, and they had a duty to do no harm. She was a little girl who was in pain who the hospital allowed to be cut off from her family and treated in an inappropriate way by a social worker. Perhaps the documentary does not present the entire picture, but the hospital seemed more concerned with winning a power struggle with Beata than with providing compassionate care to Maya.

Anonymous wrote:But then why did the hospital tell the mother and daughter they were lying about / making up the condition, and then billing their insurance for the treatment of this very condition? Is there no negligence / infliction on emotional distress in doing so?

To me, that’s an interesting question but the answer may be easily arguable and UNinteresting.
As in, can’t they claim they are observing her for this diagnosis, bc no other “explanation” can be found, but then also be skeptical that symptoms (absent the mother’s reminders) are not present to support it? It is not necessarily evidence that the hospital believes she has this condition—but rather they could argue that it’s evidence that they needed to enter a billing code and that is the closest they had to an explanation for why she is in the hospital at the time it was entered. What other code could they use? Is there an insurance billing code for “we think the diagnosis was based on symptoms that are imagined and pushed into the daughter by the mom—but we arent sure”? Maybe it should have been billed as psychiatric evaluation, but she was in the ICU, not psych ward…

At the end of the day, you could maybe argue insurance fraud? But that is a different lawsuit between the hospital and insurance company, right?

But then why did the hospital tell the mother and daughter they were lying about / making up the condition, and then billing their insurance for the treatment of this very condition? Is there no negligence / infliction on emotional distress in doing so?

NP.
I watched this in horror, through the eyes of a mother for the first 3/4 of the movie. But then something shifted and I thought “wait a second…what if…”
And once I started trying to view it through a “maybe the mom really does have Munchausn by Proxy?…” then everything started to look a bit different. Husband and daughter both seem double-traumatized and it’s almost as if mom is still controlling the narrative by her act of suicide. They can’t bear to cast her in a negative light in this bc of their grief. They really have no choice but to blame the hospital.
And if you view it through the lens of the hospital workers who suspected that the mom’s psychosis was directing all this, then you may see how they would feel “vindicated” somehow at the news of her taking her own life. They aren’t sad or empathetic…but that is because they literally believed that this is evidence of her being unstable, narcissistic, and that if not for their intervention, she would have “continued” to harm Maya—and now she can’t do that anymore. So that’s a good thing and makes them feel like they “saved” Maya. (Plus, they probably refer to her as “ketamine girl” in texts bc of HIPAA—not bc they don’t know or recall her name)

The whole thing is tragic.

But I also agree with the poster who said that the attorneys will argue that the hospital did nothing wrong here. They are mandatory reporters who referred a case to CPS. And then they followed the directives of the court that made its ruling based on the CPS investigation. To NOT follow these directives would have made the hospital liable for anything that happened to Maya at the hands of her mother, whom CPS labeled a danger.
IMO, The problem rests entirely with the whole CPS privatization issue, and the God-complex that this particular social worker seems to have in performing her role. In her defense, she’s probably seen some horrific cases of abuse that makes her feel justified when a few other unwarranted cases get caught up in the system. (In fact, she basically said just that when she wrote back to that one mom who sends her a Christmas card every year).
But they settled with her.
So I can’t imagine they have much of an actual case.

I feel so bad for the family. But by the end of the documentary I just couldn’t shake that their sadness/grief at loss of mom/ Beata is simply not allowing them to do anything other than blame the hospital and CPS social worker.

Data for Canada: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9003756/

25% of children with medically complex conditions are referred to CPS and of those, 38% are taken away from their parents.

Disgusting. The system literally abuses the sickest kids.

Anonymous wrote:The mom did come on pretty strong, and obviously did have some mental health issues. I don't think this would happen to a normal person.

It absolutely happens to normal people that have children with complex medical conditions.

Anonymous wrote:Maya looked almost anorexic when she was talking about her mother’s suicide - did anyone else have that thought

One of her main pain symptoms that they discuss several times is her stomach upset. Obviously she has issues besides the stress. I hate how people treat "invisible" diseases as fake. She has a life long illness. Her brother is also a string bean.

Honestly I'm not at all surprised by this documentary. My child has a non-rare disease, type I diabetes where parents are regularly threatened by school officials and doctors of taking their kids away because they literally don't understand the disease. One that you can Google, easily and cannot fake. They think parents are "allowing" their blood sugar to run too high or too low and are neglectful.

They think parents intentionally put their kids into diabetic ketoacidosis and then attempt to take away the child's insulin and pump when that's the only thing keeping a child from dying in DKA. The ER is literally the most dangerous place for a type I diabetic. There are so many stories from parents being attacked because doctors, nurses and the general public doesn't understand the disease and they'd cry abuse than understand.

Maya looked almost anorexic when she was talking about her mother’s suicide - did anyone else have that thought

My God. F*$^ that hospital and all who enabled them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So did they eventually give her high dose ketamine? Or did she improve on her own like they said she would?

Seems crazy the mom gave up after less than 3 months. That’s not that long.

I don't think that Maya "improved on her own." It took her several years of treatment before she started walking again. Treatment for CRPS usually involves a multi-disciplinary approach that includes counseling, intensive physical therapy, and sometimes pain management. It also involves educating the family.

It's not accurate that the mother gave up after three months. She had been trying to help her daughter for years when the cruel treatment at the hands of Dr. Smith and the hospital put her over the edge. It's hard to imagine what it feels like to have a chronically ill child. My guess is that Beata thought that after the ketamine coma, they were on the right path, so having what seems like a major setback hit her hard.

The difficult thing about CRPS is that not all doctors agree on what to do. An older generation of doctors, which it seems like Dr. Kirkpatrick was a part of, believe that you need to address a patient's pain (calm it down) before you start PT to regain function. The newer approach is to immediately start intensive PT, regardless of the pain level. If, as a parent, you are hearing two different voices, one that appears to be addressing your child's pain and another that is going to cause pain, which one would you choose? It's a huge leap of faith to accept that your child, who is in terrible pain, will get better if you force them to endure even more pain.

It can't be stated enough how unfamiliar with CRPS many healthcare providers are. One of the things mentioned in the documentary (or maybe it was an article) was that Beata was concerned about the nurses causing pain by taking Maya's blood pressure. If your child has a condition where even a light touch causes pain, dealing with providers who don't understand or don't seem willing to understand undermines your confidence in their professional judgment.

Still, it seems horrible that she took her own life because she “couldn’t take it anymore” but her daughter had been through it all herself and was still coping and still needed her mother. I could never have abandoned my child. Never.

We are only as good as our choices. In Beata’s mind, her daughter was in grave danger and could die at any second without the ketamine (according to her other doctor). She was also under care of a social worker who had been subject to charges. Beata did not kill herself just because she couldn’t take it anymore. It was clearly intended to be a drastic Hail Mary to get her daughter released. And it kind of worked. So in her mind she felt either she or maya would die and she chose herself - which is actually what any mother would do.

Not saying her thinking was correct or logical. The tragedy is that it was not. But I can’t imagine anyone would imply this mother wasn’t committed to her kids. She was tragically committed and, as another pp pointed out, she was subject to years of the extreme stress of watching her kid suffer, which is unbearable trauma. Horrible situation. Do not judge and do not hold yourself morally superior.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just watched the documentary. I wouldn’t be surprised if JHACH settled the claims before the trial starts, though the family may reject any offer at this point to get their day in court.

Given how meticulous the mother was, I’m surprised she didn’t check each billing code that was listed on the EOBs or invoices the family would have received.

I think she would have without question. They had to have come after she died.

Is it possible that they didn't receive EOBs because Maya was in the custody of the State while she was being treated at JHACH?

Anonymous wrote:Just watched the documentary. I wouldn’t be surprised if JHACH settled the claims before the trial starts, though the family may reject any offer at this point to get their day in court.

Given how meticulous the mother was, I’m surprised she didn’t check each billing code that was listed on the EOBs or invoices the family would have received.

I think she would have without question. They had to have come after she died.

Just watched the documentary. I wouldn’t be surprised if JHACH settled the claims before the trial starts, though the family may reject any offer at this point to get their day in court.

Given how meticulous the mother was, I’m surprised she didn’t check each billing code that was listed on the EOBs or invoices the family would have received.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The documentary did not say how long it took her to walk on her own. It also didn’t say that she walked after many therapies. That’s speculation.

Why isn’t there any footage in the hospital or after she was discharged showing pain? Clearly for feet to turn in, something was wrong. Especially since they were turned in while she was in the medically induced coma. But I do not think she needed the ketamine or trip to Mexico, which seemed like a very risky course of action.

I think the original ketamine prescribing doctor made the mom feel it was ketamine or a painful death, no other options.

Also, there was a lot that was left out - so we know there is more to the story. Why didn’t the current ketamine prescribing doctor testify at the hearings? Why didn’t he go to the hospital to see his patient or talk to the doctors at the hospital? The letter the prior doctor wrote to the court wouldn’t have been evidence, so why didn’t he go testify? And if a letter was written, even if not evidence, why wouldn’t the current ketamine doctor write it?

I agree that there are questions about the doctor who told the mother that Maya would die a painful death.

As far as Maya's treatment, it was outlined in the Cut article cited earlier in the threat:

When Maya left All Children’s Hospital in January 2017, she weighed less than she did when she was admitted — a dark verdict on the separation test meant to detect Munchausen by proxy. She was so weak that it was difficult for her to sit up on her own, and Jack remembers having to put stuffed animals in the back seat of the car to support her body. At home, he says, Maya cried nonstop. Jack took her to physical therapy, installed solar panels to heat their pool for aquatherapy, and bought her a teacup Yorkie puppy. CRPS abates over time in most patients. A year and a half later, as Jack watched, astonished, Maya stood up out of her wheelchair, picked up her crutches, and slowly made her way across the room. After 12 more months of swimming, yoga, and exercise, Maya took her first unassisted steps in four years. “I bawled,” Jack said.

Maya is now 16. Mature and well spoken, with wide brown eyes and blonde hair that falls just below her shoulders, she is as academically ambitious as ever, taking part in Duke University’s Talent Identification Program for gifted children. She manages her pain with a daily regimen of intensive exercise. “I still have pain, but it’s not as severe as it once was,” she says, “and I’m forever grateful for that.” In March, competing in her first figure-skating tournament in five years, she took first place.

Things like this make it seem like it’s very slanted: “When Maya left All Children’s Hospital in January 2017, she weighed less than she did when she was admitted — a dark verdict on the separation test meant to detect Munchausen by proxy. She was so weak that it was difficult for her to sit up on her own, and Jack remembers having to put stuffed animals in the back seat of the car to support her body. At home, he says, Maya cried nonstop. Jack took her to physical therapy, installed solar panels to heat their pool for aquatherapy, and bought her a teacup Yorkie puppy. CRPS abates over time in most patients. A year and a half later, as Jack …”

This was not what a single video showed from inside the hospital. She pain free and with normal energy. She’s a very thin person, even now.

Crps abates over time for most patients? The first ketamine doctor should lose his license.

How do you know she was pain-free in the hospital? Are you assuming that if she isn't screaming, she isn't in pain?

Also, CRPS may "abate" over time, but not necessarily without treatment. That doesn't mean that the pain goes away, just that it gets better. Living with constant 4/10 pain is an improvement from a 10/10, but it still interferes with daily life.

Her demeanor was completely different from when she was in pain on the video. She certainly wasn’t in the kind of pain on admission when mom said she needed ketamine. No one would ever think, from seeing those videos at the hospital, that the child needed ketomine.

The point is that mom claimed she needed ketomine or would die. She didn’t need it. She didn’t have it in the hospital and wasn’t writhing in pain. The first and second ketomine doctors are culpable. The child looks like she was videoed 24/7 at the hospital. It appears she was much better pain wise after admission, and without that drug.

So you have determined that Maya was faking her pain?

PS - I'm not defending the ketamine or die claim. If doctors told the mom that, that statement should be examined.

No, I haven’t determined that. I am saying that the claimed pain in the hospital has nothing to back that up. I don’t think she faked it. I think, overtime, she’s been persuaded by others as to how it was in the hospital after her parents were barred.

Wait so you think the video the hospital took of her in the hospital doesn't show her in pain like her parents claimed. I am shocked I tell you just shocked!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The documentary did not say how long it took her to walk on her own. It also didn’t say that she walked after many therapies. That’s speculation.

Why isn’t there any footage in the hospital or after she was discharged showing pain? Clearly for feet to turn in, something was wrong. Especially since they were turned in while she was in the medically induced coma. But I do not think she needed the ketamine or trip to Mexico, which seemed like a very risky course of action.

I think the original ketamine prescribing doctor made the mom feel it was ketamine or a painful death, no other options.

Also, there was a lot that was left out - so we know there is more to the story. Why didn’t the current ketamine prescribing doctor testify at the hearings? Why didn’t he go to the hospital to see his patient or talk to the doctors at the hospital? The letter the prior doctor wrote to the court wouldn’t have been evidence, so why didn’t he go testify? And if a letter was written, even if not evidence, why wouldn’t the current ketamine doctor write it?

I agree that there are questions about the doctor who told the mother that Maya would die a painful death.

As far as Maya's treatment, it was outlined in the Cut article cited earlier in the threat:

When Maya left All Children’s Hospital in January 2017, she weighed less than she did when she was admitted — a dark verdict on the separation test meant to detect Munchausen by proxy. She was so weak that it was difficult for her to sit up on her own, and Jack remembers having to put stuffed animals in the back seat of the car to support her body. At home, he says, Maya cried nonstop. Jack took her to physical therapy, installed solar panels to heat their pool for aquatherapy, and bought her a teacup Yorkie puppy. CRPS abates over time in most patients. A year and a half later, as Jack watched, astonished, Maya stood up out of her wheelchair, picked up her crutches, and slowly made her way across the room. After 12 more months of swimming, yoga, and exercise, Maya took her first unassisted steps in four years. “I bawled,” Jack said.

Maya is now 16. Mature and well spoken, with wide brown eyes and blonde hair that falls just below her shoulders, she is as academically ambitious as ever, taking part in Duke University’s Talent Identification Program for gifted children. She manages her pain with a daily regimen of intensive exercise. “I still have pain, but it’s not as severe as it once was,” she says, “and I’m forever grateful for that.” In March, competing in her first figure-skating tournament in five years, she took first place.

Things like this make it seem like it’s very slanted: “When Maya left All Children’s Hospital in January 2017, she weighed less than she did when she was admitted — a dark verdict on the separation test meant to detect Munchausen by proxy. She was so weak that it was difficult for her to sit up on her own, and Jack remembers having to put stuffed animals in the back seat of the car to support her body. At home, he says, Maya cried nonstop. Jack took her to physical therapy, installed solar panels to heat their pool for aquatherapy, and bought her a teacup Yorkie puppy. CRPS abates over time in most patients. A year and a half later, as Jack …”

This was not what a single video showed from inside the hospital. She pain free and with normal energy. She’s a very thin person, even now.

Crps abates over time for most patients? The first ketamine doctor should lose his license.

How do you know she was pain-free in the hospital? Are you assuming that if she isn't screaming, she isn't in pain?

Also, CRPS may "abate" over time, but not necessarily without treatment. That doesn't mean that the pain goes away, just that it gets better. Living with constant 4/10 pain is an improvement from a 10/10, but it still interferes with daily life.

Her demeanor was completely different from when she was in pain on the video. She certainly wasn’t in the kind of pain on admission when mom said she needed ketamine. No one would ever think, from seeing those videos at the hospital, that the child needed ketomine.

The point is that mom claimed she needed ketomine or would die. She didn’t need it. She didn’t have it in the hospital and wasn’t writhing in pain. The first and second ketomine doctors are culpable. The child looks like she was videoed 24/7 at the hospital. It appears she was much better pain wise after admission, and without that drug.

So you have determined that Maya was faking her pain?

PS - I'm not defending the ketamine or die claim. If doctors told the mom that, that statement should be examined.

No, I haven’t determined that. I am saying that the claimed pain in the hospital has nothing to back that up. I don’t think she faked it. I think, overtime, she’s been persuaded by others as to how it was in the hospital after her parents were barred.