Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 15:20     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
This is weird. We are in CSL and meet results and the formal ladder as of X date are public info.
Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 15:14     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Its actually really weird when the data isn't available to everyone. There is no valid reason for it not to be. I am glad MCSL posts the results for all the A meets and our team circulates programs and results for all meets as well as posting them to swimtopia.
Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 13:04     Subject: Re:How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A lot of teams chose to not share the team ladder because there are parents who will decide that they know better than the head coach and start debating the line up for A meets. It is a headache coaches and team reps don’t want to deal with. And yes the fastest kids always get to swim but if the same kid is the fastest in all 4 strokes and can only do 2 on Saturday those two events may change week to week based on match ups which impacts which swimmer who is lower on the ladder also gets an opportunity to race week to week….


Very few kids have top times in all four strokes. Usually it’s the edge cases (kids with a couple do too times and a couple of 2-4 times) that cause questions. And for good reason. Transparency will set you free. The data is the data. Unless you’re up to no good, more is better.


I think you missed the point of the previous post. If Sam is 1-2 in all four strokes, which events he swims might determine whether someone who is 4 or 5 in a particular stroke makes the A meet in any given week. Assume, for example, Sam and Ben are 1-2 across the board and Mike is 5th on the ladder in free (his best stroke and his highest ranking on the ladder). If neither Sam or Ben swim free, Mike is top 3 among the remaining options. If Sam and/or Ben swim free, then it will depend whether the kids ranked 3 and 4 are in free or other events.


I didn’t miss the point. Nothing you just said supports keeping the data secret. If anything, it means the data, including seed times, should be public so parents understand why kids are swimming in which events. I have seen enough to know that shenanigans happen.


I agree with this. I am an MCSL team rep and it would be terrible if the data was secret. Our coach always has to make a call or two as you described and it is much easier to explain with seed times.
Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 12:45     Subject: Re:How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A lot of teams chose to not share the team ladder because there are parents who will decide that they know better than the head coach and start debating the line up for A meets. It is a headache coaches and team reps don’t want to deal with. And yes the fastest kids always get to swim but if the same kid is the fastest in all 4 strokes and can only do 2 on Saturday those two events may change week to week based on match ups which impacts which swimmer who is lower on the ladder also gets an opportunity to race week to week….


Very few kids have top times in all four strokes. Usually it’s the edge cases (kids with a couple do too times and a couple of 2-4 times) that cause questions. And for good reason. Transparency will set you free. The data is the data. Unless you’re up to no good, more is better.


I think you missed the point of the previous post. If Sam is 1-2 in all four strokes, which events he swims might determine whether someone who is 4 or 5 in a particular stroke makes the A meet in any given week. Assume, for example, Sam and Ben are 1-2 across the board and Mike is 5th on the ladder in free (his best stroke and his highest ranking on the ladder). If neither Sam or Ben swim free, Mike is top 3 among the remaining options. If Sam and/or Ben swim free, then it will depend whether the kids ranked 3 and 4 are in free or other events.


I didn’t miss the point. Nothing you just said supports keeping the data secret. If anything, it means the data, including seed times, should be public so parents understand why kids are swimming in which events. I have seen enough to know that shenanigans happen.
Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 12:27     Subject: Re:How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:A lot of teams chose to not share the team ladder because there are parents who will decide that they know better than the head coach and start debating the line up for A meets. It is a headache coaches and team reps don’t want to deal with. And yes the fastest kids always get to swim but if the same kid is the fastest in all 4 strokes and can only do 2 on Saturday those two events may change week to week based on match ups which impacts which swimmer who is lower on the ladder also gets an opportunity to race week to week….


Very few kids have top times in all four strokes. Usually it’s the edge cases (kids with a couple do too times and a couple of 2-4 times) that cause questions. And for good reason. Transparency will set you free. The data is the data. Unless you’re up to no good, more is better.


I think you missed the point of the previous post. If Sam is 1-2 in all four strokes, which events he swims might determine whether someone who is 4 or 5 in a particular stroke makes the A meet in any given week. Assume, for example, Sam and Ben are 1-2 across the board and Mike is 5th on the ladder in free (his best stroke and his highest ranking on the ladder). If neither Sam or Ben swim free, Mike is top 3 among the remaining options. If Sam and/or Ben swim free, then it will depend whether the kids ranked 3 and 4 are in free or other events.
Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 11:57     Subject: Re:How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:A lot of teams chose to not share the team ladder because there are parents who will decide that they know better than the head coach and start debating the line up for A meets. It is a headache coaches and team reps don’t want to deal with. And yes the fastest kids always get to swim but if the same kid is the fastest in all 4 strokes and can only do 2 on Saturday those two events may change week to week based on match ups which impacts which swimmer who is lower on the ladder also gets an opportunity to race week to week….


Very few kids have top times in all four strokes. Usually it’s the edge cases (kids with a couple do too times and a couple of 2-4 times) that cause questions. And for good reason. Transparency will set you free. The data is the data. Unless you’re up to no good, more is better.
Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 11:42     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:If you aren't competitive to win A meets, jockeying for position is missing the point of what you need out of swim team. Exercise and improve your strength and skill, and have fun with friends..


Wrong. Learning how to set goals and compete is healthy, in addition to all of the rest that you mention. Work hard enough and you might eventually level up and really compete. Everyone starts somewhere.
Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 11:40     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:One of my kids uses the B meets to try to move up the ladder to make A meets or better lanes for A meets. So she will strategically look at which strokes she thinks she can drop time to move up relative to others on the team.

The other two just pick the two events they like the best.

Both systems are fine with me


We want to do this because we know one kid is very close and beating an A meet swimmer in some strokes but we can only see our own times online. Can’t see anyone else’s

Here you go:

http://www.mcsl.org/Results2.aspx


We are in NVSL. And doesn’t help that we have the same thing but it’s only A meet and everyone can only swim 2 strokes in A meets.


Your team doesn't circulate a ladder? Our team does after each meet.

Or even if they don’t circulate the ladder, they never provide the results of a meet, they only give each kid their own times? This doesn’t make any sense. I’m aware of some teams that don’t circulate the ladder, but I’m not aware of any that don’t provide complete meet results.


Agree! Curious if any teams provide the meet sheet with times before the meet? We were told it was an NVSL rule that they can’t but I can’t find it. Plus, that seems ridiculous since 90% of the kids have times on the NVSL website.


The teams in the division vote, or come to a consensus. Most divisions choose to not print the times, but it’s not a steadfast NVSL rule.


What a strange consensus - what is the rational, do you know? MCSL 'A' and 'B' meets have a program/heat sheets w/ seed times provided in advance. I think most, if not all club meets have the same. Very odd that this is not also done in NVSL.



Meet sheets with times should be available to everyone. It is ridiculous it isn’t. While you might get more questions from parents, it provides much needed transparency and keeps everyone honest. I know one team that uses times from past years to seed meets and that is just wrong.


Totally agree.
Anonymous
Post 06/28/2023 11:39     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Our team usually posts the ladder, and I think it’s important for kids to see the results of their hard work and where they stand. It also keeps the coaches and reps accountable. This is a competitive sport, why act like competition is not the point? Definitely choose your strokes based on what you want to achieve.
Anonymous
Post 06/26/2023 16:09     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:One of my kids uses the B meets to try to move up the ladder to make A meets or better lanes for A meets. So she will strategically look at which strokes she thinks she can drop time to move up relative to others on the team.

The other two just pick the two events they like the best.

Both systems are fine with me


We want to do this because we know one kid is very close and beating an A meet swimmer in some strokes but we can only see our own times online. Can’t see anyone else’s

Here you go:

http://www.mcsl.org/Results2.aspx


We are in NVSL. And doesn’t help that we have the same thing but it’s only A meet and everyone can only swim 2 strokes in A meets.


Your team doesn't circulate a ladder? Our team does after each meet.

Or even if they don’t circulate the ladder, they never provide the results of a meet, they only give each kid their own times? This doesn’t make any sense. I’m aware of some teams that don’t circulate the ladder, but I’m not aware of any that don’t provide complete meet results.


Agree! Curious if any teams provide the meet sheet with times before the meet? We were told it was an NVSL rule that they can’t but I can’t find it. Plus, that seems ridiculous since 90% of the kids have times on the NVSL website.


The teams in the division vote, or come to a consensus. Most divisions choose to not print the times, but it’s not a steadfast NVSL rule.


What a strange consensus - what is the rational, do you know? MCSL 'A' and 'B' meets have a program/heat sheets w/ seed times provided in advance. I think most, if not all club meets have the same. Very odd that this is not also done in NVSL.



Meet sheets with times should be available to everyone. It is ridiculous it isn’t. While you might get more questions from parents, it provides much needed transparency and keeps everyone honest. I know one team that uses times from past years to seed meets and that is just wrong.
Anonymous
Post 06/26/2023 15:01     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:If you aren't competitive to win A meets, jockeying for position is missing the point of what you need out of swim team. Exercise and improve your strength and skill, and have fun with friends..


I couldn’t disagree more. Swimming in an a meet is special. The older kids do things like chalk the younger kid’s driveway, carry them on their shoulders etc. having a goal of making an a meet is a great goal for a summer swimmer. Oh and they will also exercise, improve strength, and have fun with friends.


Agreed, I have a kid who is in a new age group this year, but was able to be top 4 in free and top 3 in another stroke last year. They were the only non year round swimmer to swim an additional stroke and they also were on an all star relay. That was really special to them - this kid only swims during the summer for fun. This year at the bottom of the age division they were able to swim free in an A meet and they were very proud.
Anonymous
Post 06/26/2023 14:56     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Some years our team circulates the ladder. Some years they don't. But in the team app you can see all the results of time trials, A & B meets so you know exactly where your kid falls.

B meets you choose and coach will only take them out if they aren't legal in the stroke. A meet coaches enter the top 6 for free, top 3 for other strokes. It is very transparent.
Anonymous
Post 06/26/2023 14:03     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
Anonymous wrote:If you aren't competitive to win A meets, jockeying for position is missing the point of what you need out of swim team. Exercise and improve your strength and skill, and have fun with friends..


I couldn’t disagree more. Swimming in an a meet is special. The older kids do things like chalk the younger kid’s driveway, carry them on their shoulders etc. having a goal of making an a meet is a great goal for a summer swimmer. Oh and they will also exercise, improve strength, and have fun with friends.
Anonymous
Post 06/26/2023 13:19     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
If you aren't competitive to win A meets, jockeying for position is missing the point of what you need out of swim team. Exercise and improve your strength and skill, and have fun with friends..
Anonymous
Post 06/26/2023 12:44     Subject: How to choose events for summer dual meets？
I mean in MCSL this is all 100% transparent. The B times are viewable by everyone at our pool as they are published in Swimtopia, and the A meets are also there (but they are also on reachforthwall.org and swimstandards.com). There isn't a formal "ladder" but kids look at the printed results for every meet as automation prints them out so they know if they got faster or not. I've never seen a heat sheet without seed times either.