Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Golf courses are an elitist waste of space. It should be eliminated and replaced with short term housing villages for newly-arrived citizens.

You have be a troll. Or really breathtakingly stupid.

Please explain what is breathtakingly stupid about building housing for poor people who are arriving to this country with nothing but the clothes on their backs? Thugs like Abott and DeSantis are sending people to DC with nothing. Doesn’t it make sense to build a place where they can can stay until they get on their feet?

Simply the fact that the land won't support the building or infrastructure. However, the White House lawn would work and with the security in place there everyone would be much safer as well.

The White House lawn? That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. Totally unfeasible, not too mention it would ruin the entire visual aesthetic of the seat of power of our country, turning the executive mansion into a refugee camp. You must be a trumper, because only a trumper could come up with something so incredibly dumb.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

I believe there are multiple other locations in DC that serve as concerts venues. I personally have been to multiple concerts on the Capital Steps, to the Mall, to Carter Barron, to Nats Park. Confident that DC does not need another underutilized concert venue for 2-3 concerts a year.

Are concerts only held at outdoor venues like Merriweather Post or Wolf Trap 2-3x a year? Of course not. They are used multiple times a week from spring to fall. But, they are far from the city and lack transit access. An urban outdoor concert venue that was managed by a major operator would be instantly popular. See Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston, or BB&T Pavilion in Philly/Camden, or Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago, etc.

East Potomac Park is absolutely perfect for this: abundant space, solid transit access, close to commerical centers (especially with a shuttle ferry to the Wharf on event nights), no residential neighbors, and little ability to use the land for other buildings for structural reasons.

In contrast, the Capitol steps and the Mall are obviously not appropriate for most concerts. Carter Barron is great, but it's far from metro or a commerical district, has been under renovation for nearly a decade, and was lightly used for many years before that because of NPS management. It's also a seated-only venue which limits its use somewhat. Nats Park way too big for most mid-size acts, and is already booked 80 times a year with games.

Building a proper modern outdoor venue in East Potomac Park could easily be done while still retaining the ability to golf there (just not 36 holes), and without changing Hains Point itself.

Sorry. There is simply not a need for another concert venue in DC. And, yes, the Mall could be used, as well as Carter Barron. I note that the NPS manages Hains Point as well as Carter Barron, so your critic of NPS applies to both. Nats Park and Audi Field are also options. I have been to several concerts at Nats Park. EPP would be disaster as concert venue. 10,000 arriving and leaving at the same time on the few roads there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

Do you even know how golf works?

You get a tee time spaced 12 minutes apart from another group. So 4 people tee off and four people tee off 12 minutes later. This goes on all day on the three courses there. So 16 people an hour times three courses, times 13 hours of light, times 365 days. 624 golfers a day. 18,720 a month, 224,640 a year. And that doesn't factor the driving range or the chipping green or the putting green so times that by 2. Lets say half a million people use the facility each year. Weather my dampen those numbers but not much- Hains is always packed. That's a poor use of a dredged island???

But you'd rather have drunk and rowdy concerts there with, at best, an average of 40% attendance? Why?

The golf course also takes up over 200 acres of urban land. So, what, 6 people per acre per day? We wouldn't accept those kinds of person-density numbers out of any other commercial recreational activity in the city, especially not one so close to downtown.

A large, multi-purpose concert space would take up a small fraction of the land and almost surely get far more use. Freedom Mortgage Pavilion (formerly BB&T) in Philly fits 25k people on 8 acres. Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago fits 15k in 4 acres. Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston is smaller at 5k, but also takes up even less space. Even if attendance were only 40% of capacity, with an average of one show a week (more in summer, less in winter), that's somewhere around 175-200 people per acre per day averaged over the year. Under those assumptions, a Philly-sized venue would attract as many people as the whole golf course using only as much space as 1-2 holes. That means much more tax revenue, a boost to nearby commercial activity, and a boost to the arts and music communities in the region.

With the decline of downtown office districts, cities like DC need to pivot to being urban playgrounds to maintain their tax base and ensure their continued relevance. Golf is not going to get us there; it just uses up way too much valuable space. It also does nothing to make use of the comparative advantages of the city in transit infrastructure and lots of young people. It belongs on the periphery.

Related: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/05/10/opinion/nyc-office-vacancy-playground-city.html

Wait- your argument is that it's too much green space? You'd rather have parking lots, tour buses, amplified music, concerts and all the drug and alcohol related mess that comes with it?

And you effed up. I'm from Glen Ellyn. Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago holds 30,000 and is on 91 acres so not even close to a good example. That would take up half of hains point.

Who said anything about parking lots? We have plenty of other venues in the city that operate with little or no surface parking, this could easily do the same. That's the point of a good public transit system. Not only that, but we could easily build a Yellow Line metro stop right on the park to service a large outdoor venue. The space that would be needed is currently an NPS maintenance yard.

Tour buses are already common in the park; the park in the lots on Ohio Drive. Not sure why the fact that some of them are from bands rather than middle schoolers would make much of a difference.

I stand corrected about the capacity of Huntington Bank. The original capacity was lower (I saw 15k on one site, and 8k on another), and it was on ~4 acres, according to Wikipedia. The new capacity of 30k is correct. But 91 acres is the size of the whole island, not the concert venue itself, which is still only a small portion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

I believe there are multiple other locations in DC that serve as concerts venues. I personally have been to multiple concerts on the Capital Steps, to the Mall, to Carter Barron, to Nats Park. Confident that DC does not need another underutilized concert venue for 2-3 concerts a year.

Are concerts only held at outdoor venues like Merriweather Post or Wolf Trap 2-3x a year? Of course not. They are used multiple times a week from spring to fall. But, they are far from the city and lack transit access. An urban outdoor concert venue that was managed by a major operator would be instantly popular. See Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston, or BB&T Pavilion in Philly/Camden, or Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago, etc.

East Potomac Park is absolutely perfect for this: abundant space, solid transit access, close to commerical centers (especially with a shuttle ferry to the Wharf on event nights), no residential neighbors, and little ability to use the land for other buildings for structural reasons.

In contrast, the Capitol steps and the Mall are obviously not appropriate for most concerts. Carter Barron is great, but it's far from metro or a commerical district, has been under renovation for nearly a decade, and was lightly used for many years before that because of NPS management. It's also a seated-only venue which limits its use somewhat. Nats Park way too big for most mid-size acts, and is already booked 80 times a year with games.

Building a proper modern outdoor venue in East Potomac Park could easily be done while still retaining the ability to golf there (just not 36 holes), and without changing Hains Point itself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

Do you even know how golf works?

You get a tee time spaced 12 minutes apart from another group. So 4 people tee off and four people tee off 12 minutes later. This goes on all day on the three courses there. So 16 people an hour times three courses, times 13 hours of light, times 365 days. 624 golfers a day. 18,720 a month, 224,640 a year. And that doesn't factor the driving range or the chipping green or the putting green so times that by 2. Lets say half a million people use the facility each year. Weather my dampen those numbers but not much- Hains is always packed. That's a poor use of a dredged island???

But you'd rather have drunk and rowdy concerts there with, at best, an average of 40% attendance? Why?

The golf course also takes up over 200 acres of urban land. So, what, 6 people per acre per day? We wouldn't accept those kinds of person-density numbers out of any other commercial recreational activity in the city, especially not one so close to downtown.

A large, multi-purpose concert space would take up a small fraction of the land and almost surely get far more use. Freedom Mortgage Pavilion (formerly BB&T) in Philly fits 25k people on 8 acres. Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago fits 15k in 4 acres. Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston is smaller at 5k, but also takes up even less space. Even if attendance were only 40% of capacity, with an average of one show a week (more in summer, less in winter), that's somewhere around 175-200 people per acre per day averaged over the year. Under those assumptions, a Philly-sized venue would attract as many people as the whole golf course using only as much space as 1-2 holes. That means much more tax revenue, a boost to nearby commercial activity, and a boost to the arts and music communities in the region.

With the decline of downtown office districts, cities like DC need to pivot to being urban playgrounds to maintain their tax base and ensure their continued relevance. Golf is not going to get us there; it just uses up way too much valuable space. It also does nothing to make use of the comparative advantages of the city in transit infrastructure and lots of young people. It belongs on the periphery.

Related: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/05/10/opinion/nyc-office-vacancy-playground-city.html

Wait- your argument is that it's too much green space? You'd rather have parking lots, tour buses, amplified music, concerts and all the drug and alcohol related mess that comes with it?

And you effed up. I'm from Glen Ellyn. Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago holds 30,000 and is on 91 acres so not even close to a good example. That would take up half of hains point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

I believe there are multiple other locations in DC that serve as concerts venues. I personally have been to multiple concerts on the Capital Steps, to the Mall, to Carter Barron, to Nats Park. Confident that DC does not need another underutilized concert venue for 2-3 concerts a year.

Are concerts only held at outdoor venues like Merriweather Post or Wolf Trap 2-3x a year? Of course not. They are used multiple times a week from spring to fall. But, they are far from the city and lack transit access. An urban outdoor concert venue that was managed by a major operator would be instantly popular. See Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston, or BB&T Pavilion in Philly/Camden, or Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago, etc.

East Potomac Park is absolutely perfect for this: abundant space, solid transit access, close to commerical centers (especially with a shuttle ferry to the Wharf on event nights), no residential neighbors, and little ability to use the land for other buildings for structural reasons.

In contrast, the Capitol steps and the Mall are obviously not appropriate for most concerts. Carter Barron is great, but it's far from metro or a commerical district, has been under renovation for nearly a decade, and was lightly used for many years before that because of NPS management. It's also a seated-only venue which limits its use somewhat. Nats Park way too big for most mid-size acts, and is already booked 80 times a year with games.

Building a proper modern outdoor venue in East Potomac Park could easily be done while still retaining the ability to golf there (just not 36 holes), and without changing Hains Point itself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

Do you even know how golf works?

You get a tee time spaced 12 minutes apart from another group. So 4 people tee off and four people tee off 12 minutes later. This goes on all day on the three courses there. So 16 people an hour times three courses, times 13 hours of light, times 365 days. 624 golfers a day. 18,720 a month, 224,640 a year. And that doesn't factor the driving range or the chipping green or the putting green so times that by 2. Lets say half a million people use the facility each year. Weather my dampen those numbers but not much- Hains is always packed. That's a poor use of a dredged island???

But you'd rather have drunk and rowdy concerts there with, at best, an average of 40% attendance? Why?

The golf course also takes up over 200 acres of urban land. So, what, 6 people per acre per day? We wouldn't accept those kinds of person-density numbers out of any other commercial recreational activity in the city, especially not one so close to downtown.

A large, multi-purpose concert space would take up a small fraction of the land and almost surely get far more use. Freedom Mortgage Pavilion (formerly BB&T) in Philly fits 25k people on 8 acres. Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago fits 15k in 4 acres. Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston is smaller at 5k, but also takes up even less space. Even if attendance were only 40% of capacity, with an average of one show a week (more in summer, less in winter), that's somewhere around 175-200 people per acre per day averaged over the year. Under those assumptions, a Philly-sized venue would attract as many people as the whole golf course using only as much space as 1-2 holes. That means much more tax revenue, a boost to nearby commercial activity, and a boost to the arts and music communities in the region.

With the decline of downtown office districts, cities like DC need to pivot to being urban playgrounds to maintain their tax base and ensure their continued relevance. Golf is not going to get us there; it just uses up way too much valuable space. It also does nothing to make use of the comparative advantages of the city in transit infrastructure and lots of young people. It belongs on the periphery.

Related: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/05/10/opinion/nyc-office-vacancy-playground-city.html

So you'd.... place a huge amphitheter there so it could sit empty, literally 19 hours a day? And then get used a few nights with loud music and drunks? This is preferable to you over people enjoying nature and getting sober exercise?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Golf courses are an elitist waste of space. It should be eliminated and replaced with short term housing villages for newly-arrived citizens.

You have be a troll. Or really breathtakingly stupid.

Please explain what is breathtakingly stupid about building housing for poor people who are arriving to this country with nothing but the clothes on their backs? Thugs like Abott and DeSantis are sending people to DC with nothing. Doesn’t it make sense to build a place where they can can stay until they get on their feet?

Simply the fact that the land won't support the building or infrastructure. However, the White House lawn would work and with the security in place there everyone would be much safer as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

Do you even know how golf works?

You get a tee time spaced 12 minutes apart from another group. So 4 people tee off and four people tee off 12 minutes later. This goes on all day on the three courses there. So 16 people an hour times three courses, times 13 hours of light, times 365 days. 624 golfers a day. 18,720 a month, 224,640 a year. And that doesn't factor the driving range or the chipping green or the putting green so times that by 2. Lets say half a million people use the facility each year. Weather my dampen those numbers but not much- Hains is always packed. That's a poor use of a dredged island???

But you'd rather have drunk and rowdy concerts there with, at best, an average of 40% attendance? Why?

The golf course also takes up over 200 acres of urban land. So, what, 6 people per acre per day? We wouldn't accept those kinds of person-density numbers out of any other commercial recreational activity in the city, especially not one so close to downtown.

A large, multi-purpose concert space would take up a small fraction of the land and almost surely get far more use. Freedom Mortgage Pavilion (formerly BB&T) in Philly fits 25k people on 8 acres. Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago fits 15k in 4 acres. Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston is smaller at 5k, but also takes up even less space. Even if attendance were only 40% of capacity, with an average of one show a week (more in summer, less in winter), that's somewhere around 175-200 people per acre per day averaged over the year. Under those assumptions, a Philly-sized venue would attract as many people as the whole golf course using only as much space as 1-2 holes. That means much more tax revenue, a boost to nearby commercial activity, and a boost to the arts and music communities in the region.

With the decline of downtown office districts, cities like DC need to pivot to being urban playgrounds to maintain their tax base and ensure their continued relevance. Golf is not going to get us there; it just uses up way too much valuable space. It also does nothing to make use of the comparative advantages of the city in transit infrastructure and lots of young people. It belongs on the periphery.

Related: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/05/10/opinion/nyc-office-vacancy-playground-city.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

Do you even know how golf works?

You get a tee time spaced 12 minutes apart from another group. So 4 people tee off and four people tee off 12 minutes later. This goes on all day on the three courses there. So 16 people an hour times three courses, times 13 hours of light, times 365 days. 624 golfers a day. 18,720 a month, 224,640 a year. And that doesn't factor the driving range or the chipping green or the putting green so times that by 2. Lets say half a million people use the facility each year. Weather my dampen those numbers but not much- Hains is always packed. That's a poor use of a dredged island???

But you'd rather have drunk and rowdy concerts there with, at best, an average of 40% attendance? Why?

The golf course also takes up over 200 acres of urban land. So, what, 6 people per acre per day? We wouldn't accept those kinds of person-density numbers out of any other commercial recreational activity in the city, especially not one so close to downtown.

A large, multi-purpose concert space would take up a small fraction of the land and almost surely get far more use. Freedom Mortgage Pavilion (formerly BB&T) in Philly fits 25k people on 8 acres. Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago fits 15k in 4 acres. Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston is smaller at 5k, but also takes up even less space. Even if attendance were only 40% of capacity, with an average of one show a week (more in summer, less in winter), that's somewhere around 175-200 people per acre per day averaged over the year. Under those assumptions, a Philly-sized venue would attract as many people as the whole golf course using only as much space as 1-2 holes. That means much more tax revenue, a boost to nearby commercial activity, and a boost to the arts and music communities in the region.

With the decline of downtown office districts, cities like DC need to pivot to being urban playgrounds to maintain their tax base and ensure their continued relevance. Golf is not going to get us there; it just uses up way too much valuable space. It also does nothing to make use of the comparative advantages of the city in transit infrastructure and lots of young people. It belongs on the periphery.

Related: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/05/10/opinion/nyc-office-vacancy-playground-city.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

Do you even know how golf works?

You get a tee time spaced 12 minutes apart from another group. So 4 people tee off and four people tee off 12 minutes later. This goes on all day on the three courses there. So 16 people an hour times three courses, times 13 hours of light, times 365 days. 624 golfers a day. 18,720 a month, 224,640 a year. And that doesn't factor the driving range or the chipping green or the putting green so times that by 2. Lets say half a million people use the facility each year. Weather my dampen those numbers but not much- Hains is always packed. That's a poor use of a dredged island???

But you'd rather have drunk and rowdy concerts there with, at best, an average of 40% attendance? Why?

The golf course also takes up over 200 acres of urban land. So, what, 6 people per acre per day? We wouldn't accept those kinds of person-density numbers out of any other commercial recreational activity in the city, especially not one so close to downtown.

A large, multi-purpose concert space would take up a small fraction of the land and almost surely get far more use. Freedom Mortgage Pavilion (formerly BB&T) in Philly fits 25k people on 8 acres. Huntington Bank Pavilion in Chicago fits 15k in 4 acres. Leader Bank Pavilion in Boston is smaller at 5k, but also takes up even less space. Even if attendance were only 40% of capacity, with an average of one show a week (more in summer, less in winter), that's somewhere around 175-200 people per acre per day averaged over the year. Under those assumptions, a Philly-sized venue would attract as many people as the whole golf course using only as much space as 1-2 holes. That means much more tax revenue, a boost to nearby commercial activity, and a boost to the arts and music communities in the region.

With the decline of downtown office districts, cities like DC need to pivot to being urban playgrounds to maintain their tax base and ensure their continued relevance. Golf is not going to get us there; it just uses up way too much valuable space. It also does nothing to make use of the comparative advantages of the city in transit infrastructure and lots of young people. It belongs on the periphery.

Related: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/05/10/opinion/nyc-office-vacancy-playground-city.html

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

Do you even know how golf works?

You get a tee time spaced 12 minutes apart from another group. So 4 people tee off and four people tee off 12 minutes later. This goes on all day on the three courses there. So 16 people an hour times three courses, times 13 hours of light, times 365 days. 624 golfers a day. 18,720 a month, 224,640 a year. And that doesn't factor the driving range or the chipping green or the putting green so times that by 2. Lets say half a million people use the facility each year. Weather my dampen those numbers but not much- Hains is always packed. That's a poor use of a dredged island???

But you'd rather have drunk and rowdy concerts there with, at best, an average of 40% attendance? Why?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Played 9 holes with my sons on Sunday. Course was packed, range was full, half a dozen people on the chipping green.

In other words- it was fully utilized.

That's well and good, but something like an outdoor concert venue could be hosting hundreds or thousands of people in the same space.

I believe there are multiple other locations in DC that serve as concerts venues. I personally have been to multiple concerts on the Capital Steps, to the Mall, to Carter Barron, to Nats Park. Confident that DC does not need another underutilized concert venue for 2-3 concerts a year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Golf courses are an elitist waste of space. It should be eliminated and replaced with short term housing villages for newly-arrived citizens.

You have be a troll. Or really breathtakingly stupid.