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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: it’s not that I’m advocating vocational training. I get the value of learning how to read, write, think critically, problem solve. And I see the fringe benefit of art stuff as a fun and healthy activity. But where the arts oriented people lose me is when they choose one school over another based on the arts programming as opposed to variables that may have a more significant long term impact. Like choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes. It just seems that these things are nice to have but for $320k maybe they don’t matter that much and you should be focused on other factors?

You know, I wanted to believe that you asked the original question out of real curiosity and desire to learn about other people. People replied and explained, and your response is to double down and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong.

Seriously, no one is trying to convince you to value the arts as part of a college experience. No one cares whether you value it. Why do you care that others value it? Are you just desperate for something to judge other people about? Good lord.

The tell is the idea that people are "choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes."

OP: I’m obviously demonstrating a bit of proletarian disdain for the arts here, but I guess from a practical point of view, when I read things like my DS really wants a strong theatre program or something like that, I’m just thinking to myself - come on- high school is over, a man has to focus on making a living now. I totally appreciate that people have hobbies and interests but, I don’t know, you gotta focus on getting from A to B. That’s just my mindset. Thinking about the quality of art offerings feels frivolous but look, it’s not my wheelhouse. And btw I collect art and appreciate art. I guess I am just focused more on my kids being well positioned to get ultimately good jobs out of this whole college thing and be on a strong career trajectory. I’ve seen people get distracted by their passions and then have nothing to show for it

Ok. You sound like a neanderthal type of man I never wanted to marry. Are you for real?
My husband as a degree in PIANO. He is a jazz pianist who does gigs still. And guess what else he is? He's a surgeon. Yep, a piano playing surgeon. No, he isn't gay or anything, and he isn't a neanderthal. Just a guy who appreciates the arts and how much they contribute to our world. OMG.

I never said I don’t appreciate art or music. And my non-Neanderthal brain gravitates more towards literature, philosophy etc. I just struggle with the idea that art/music/theatre programming would be paramount in the college decision process but to be honest, I get what people are saying. If kids are normally able to choose among schools of comparable academic quality and so forth, might as well go to the one that will let them have fun with their creative passion. And sure if you know you are headed to law or med school, I guess you can major in anything.

I've got no room to criticize my kids for a frivolous undergrad. I majored in history! (Then went to law school.)

I learned about his in Dead Poet's Society (created, no doubt, by an artist of some sort!)

We don't read and write poetry because it's cute. We read and write poetry because we are members of the human race. And the human race is filled with passion.

Medicine, law, business, engineering, these are all noble pursuits, and necessary to sustain life. But poetry, beauty, romance, love, these are what we stay alive for.

To quote from Whitman: "O me, o life of the questions of these recurring, of the endless trains of the faithless, of cities filled with the foolish. What good amid these, o me, o life? Answer: that you are here. That life exists, and identity. That the powerful play goes on, and you may contribute a verse. That the powerful play goes on and you may contribute a verse."

And, as if the message wasn't clear enough, Red Foreman wouldn't let his kid engage in any silly nonsense like acting. The kid was going to focus like a laser on getting into medical school. So the kid killed himself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: it’s not that I’m advocating vocational training. I get the value of learning how to read, write, think critically, problem solve. And I see the fringe benefit of art stuff as a fun and healthy activity. But where the arts oriented people lose me is when they choose one school over another based on the arts programming as opposed to variables that may have a more significant long term impact. Like choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes. It just seems that these things are nice to have but for $320k maybe they don’t matter that much and you should be focused on other factors?

You know, I wanted to believe that you asked the original question out of real curiosity and desire to learn about other people. People replied and explained, and your response is to double down and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong.

Seriously, no one is trying to convince you to value the arts as part of a college experience. No one cares whether you value it. Why do you care that others value it? Are you just desperate for something to judge other people about? Good lord.

The tell is the idea that people are "choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes."

OP: I’m obviously demonstrating a bit of proletarian disdain for the arts here, but I guess from a practical point of view, when I read things like my DS really wants a strong theatre program or something like that, I’m just thinking to myself - come on- high school is over, a man has to focus on making a living now. I totally appreciate that people have hobbies and interests but, I don’t know, you gotta focus on getting from A to B. That’s just my mindset. Thinking about the quality of art offerings feels frivolous but look, it’s not my wheelhouse. And btw I collect art and appreciate art. I guess I am just focused more on my kids being well positioned to get ultimately good jobs out of this whole college thing and be on a strong career trajectory. I’ve seen people get distracted by their passions and then have nothing to show for it

Ok. You sound like a neanderthal type of man I never wanted to marry. Are you for real?
My husband as a degree in PIANO. He is a jazz pianist who does gigs still. And guess what else he is? He's a surgeon. Yep, a piano playing surgeon. No, he isn't gay or anything, and he isn't a neanderthal. Just a guy who appreciates the arts and how much they contribute to our world. OMG.

I never said I don’t appreciate art or music. And my non-Neanderthal brain gravitates more towards literature, philosophy etc. I just struggle with the idea that art/music/theatre programming would be paramount in the college decision process but to be honest, I get what people are saying. If kids are normally able to choose among schools of comparable academic quality and so forth, might as well go to the one that will let them have fun with their creative passion. And sure if you know you are headed to law or med school, I guess you can major in anything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's with this "help brain development" BS? And OP, are you really serious with this question?

You all might want to take a look at the minimum pay charts for directors, writers, producers, etc.. on the websites of their unions. And then look at the chart of residual payments. Then ask yourself if you ever will make that kind of money doing what you are doing.

Then take a look at the list of credits on a movie, or the masthead of a magazine.

THEN, I invite you to take a look at LinkedIn and search "Head of Content" or Chief Content Officer and see what pops up. What do you think those people studied? Accounting?
Who do you think is writing, designing and creating all these ads you see on social media and TV? Do you even know that the average person on TIKTOK doing stupid dance videos is making 10K a month on sponsorships?

What century are people living in?

But then take a look at the average salaries of arts graduates--the return on investment is negative for most.

ROI - dumbest way to think about gaining knowledge -- ever.

College is an industry, my friend. This is big business.

If you want to gain knowledge, go to your local library.

OP, I am an Asian Indian and my entire schooling system was mostly academics - fine arts and sports were a joke.

Now most of my friends are in late 40's and it is hard to figure out a hobby. I have insisted my kids to play a musical instrument plus a sport, not for college admission but so that they have a hobby/active life style for life. They are pretty average but helps give them an outlet outside of stressful HS. My older one also takes Theater as an elective. I find numerous benefits of theater, more confident and interesting teenagers. I would absolutely encourage them to take a few classes in fine arts in college.

But I agree, the other variables in college including costs, proximity to home, strength of engineering program will matter MUCH more than the strength of fine arts program.

If my kids participated at a much higher level in fine arts and sports, the conversation would be different

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's with this "help brain development" BS? And OP, are you really serious with this question?

You all might want to take a look at the minimum pay charts for directors, writers, producers, etc.. on the websites of their unions. And then look at the chart of residual payments. Then ask yourself if you ever will make that kind of money doing what you are doing.

Then take a look at the list of credits on a movie, or the masthead of a magazine.

THEN, I invite you to take a look at LinkedIn and search "Head of Content" or Chief Content Officer and see what pops up. What do you think those people studied? Accounting?
Who do you think is writing, designing and creating all these ads you see on social media and TV? Do you even know that the average person on TIKTOK doing stupid dance videos is making 10K a month on sponsorships?

What century are people living in?

But then take a look at the average salaries of arts graduates--the return on investment is negative for most.

ROI - dumbest way to think about gaining knowledge -- ever.

OMG. When schools are $100-300k all-in, of course ROI matters. Why wouldn’t it? This isn’t 1900 where men from upstanding families go to college to study literature.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's with this "help brain development" BS? And OP, are you really serious with this question?

You all might want to take a look at the minimum pay charts for directors, writers, producers, etc.. on the websites of their unions. And then look at the chart of residual payments. Then ask yourself if you ever will make that kind of money doing what you are doing.

Then take a look at the list of credits on a movie, or the masthead of a magazine.

THEN, I invite you to take a look at LinkedIn and search "Head of Content" or Chief Content Officer and see what pops up. What do you think those people studied? Accounting?
Who do you think is writing, designing and creating all these ads you see on social media and TV? Do you even know that the average person on TIKTOK doing stupid dance videos is making 10K a month on sponsorships?

What century are people living in?

But then take a look at the average salaries of arts graduates--the return on investment is negative for most.

ROI - dumbest way to think about gaining knowledge -- ever.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: it’s not that I’m advocating vocational training. I get the value of learning how to read, write, think critically, problem solve. And I see the fringe benefit of art stuff as a fun and healthy activity. But where the arts oriented people lose me is when they choose one school over another based on the arts programming as opposed to variables that may have a more significant long term impact. Like choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes. It just seems that these things are nice to have but for $320k maybe they don’t matter that much and you should be focused on other factors?

You know, I wanted to believe that you asked the original question out of real curiosity and desire to learn about other people. People replied and explained, and your response is to double down and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong.

Seriously, no one is trying to convince you to value the arts as part of a college experience. No one cares whether you value it. Why do you care that others value it? Are you just desperate for something to judge other people about? Good lord.

The tell is the idea that people are "choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes."

OP: I’m obviously demonstrating a bit of proletarian disdain for the arts here, but I guess from a practical point of view, when I read things like my DS really wants a strong theatre program or something like that, I’m just thinking to myself - come on- high school is over, a man has to focus on making a living now. I totally appreciate that people have hobbies and interests but, I don’t know, you gotta focus on getting from A to B. That’s just my mindset. Thinking about the quality of art offerings feels frivolous but look, it’s not my wheelhouse. And btw I collect art and appreciate art. I guess I am just focused more on my kids being well positioned to get ultimately good jobs out of this whole college thing and be on a strong career trajectory. I’ve seen people get distracted by their passions and then have nothing to show for it

Ok. You sound like a neanderthal type of man I never wanted to marry. Are you for real?
My husband as a degree in PIANO. He is a jazz pianist who does gigs still. And guess what else he is? He's a surgeon. Yep, a piano playing surgeon. No, he isn't gay or anything, and he isn't a neanderthal. Just a guy who appreciates the arts and how much they contribute to our world. OMG.

Last year several of those "influencers" got into Harvard, specifically because they took the initiative to build brands, because that's really what that is, no matter how you feel about it. And yes, in fact, schools are beginning to offer that.

Getting into those unions are just a matter of doing the work and having the credits, which you can do on your own. And they have nothing to do with Hollywood, you can do that from anywhere. Nobody has to let you in, in the way a typical trade union does.

And everybody pretty much gets paid based on the table of minimums, union or not. The guilds just set the range, and that's what people charge based on that range, guild member or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's with this "help brain development" BS? And OP, are you really serious with this question?

You all might want to take a look at the minimum pay charts for directors, writers, producers, etc.. on the websites of their unions. And then look at the chart of residual payments. Then ask yourself if you ever will make that kind of money doing what you are doing.

Then take a look at the list of credits on a movie, or the masthead of a magazine.

THEN, I invite you to take a look at LinkedIn and search "Head of Content" or Chief Content Officer and see what pops up. What do you think those people studied? Accounting?
Who do you think is writing, designing and creating all these ads you see on social media and TV? Do you even know that the average person on TIKTOK doing stupid dance videos is making 10K a month on sponsorships?

What century are people living in?

But then take a look at the average salaries of arts graduates--the return on investment is negative for most.

So is the return on investment to having kids. Why did you have children?

OMG. My daughter is in choir and lives and breathes music. Not unlike other kids live and breathe swimming, running, lacrosse or soccer. She's good at it too. She is purposely looking at colleges where she can sing and take lessons. This gives her satisfaction and energy.

Anonymous wrote:The best colleges often have the best arts and theater programs, so for the most part kids will be fine!

Not really--many are exclusive to majors only.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: it’s not that I’m advocating vocational training. I get the value of learning how to read, write, think critically, problem solve. And I see the fringe benefit of art stuff as a fun and healthy activity. But where the arts oriented people lose me is when they choose one school over another based on the arts programming as opposed to variables that may have a more significant long term impact. Like choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes. It just seems that these things are nice to have but for $320k maybe they don’t matter that much and you should be focused on other factors?

You know, I wanted to believe that you asked the original question out of real curiosity and desire to learn about other people. People replied and explained, and your response is to double down and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong.

Seriously, no one is trying to convince you to value the arts as part of a college experience. No one cares whether you value it. Why do you care that others value it? Are you just desperate for something to judge other people about? Good lord.

The tell is the idea that people are "choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes."

OP: I’m obviously demonstrating a bit of proletarian disdain for the arts here, but I guess from a practical point of view, when I read things like my DS really wants a strong theatre program or something like that, I’m just thinking to myself - come on- high school is over, a man has to focus on making a living now. I totally appreciate that people have hobbies and interests but, I don’t know, you gotta focus on getting from A to B. That’s just my mindset. Thinking about the quality of art offerings feels frivolous but look, it’s not my wheelhouse. And btw I collect art and appreciate art. I guess I am just focused more on my kids being well positioned to get ultimately good jobs out of this whole college thing and be on a strong career trajectory. I’ve seen people get distracted by their passions and then have nothing to show for it

Ok - so I'll judge - you seem like a mansplaining 50+ UMC white guy, probably in the C-suite of some mid-level company, who doesn't give a shit about his kid's happiness as long as they can make money and he can tout where they went to school to his buddies on the golf course.

Kinda close but not really. UMC is a serious understatement. But not rich enough to support my kids for the rest of their lives

Anonymous wrote:What's with this "help brain development" BS? And OP, are you really serious with this question?

You all might want to take a look at the minimum pay charts for directors, writers, producers, etc.. on the websites of their unions. And then look at the chart of residual payments. Then ask yourself if you ever will make that kind of money doing what you are doing.

Then take a look at the list of credits on a movie, or the masthead of a magazine.

THEN, I invite you to take a look at LinkedIn and search "Head of Content" or Chief Content Officer and see what pops up. What do you think those people studied? Accounting?
Who do you think is writing, designing and creating all these ads you see on social media and TV? Do you even know that the average person on TIKTOK doing stupid dance videos is making 10K a month on sponsorships?

What century are people living in?

But then take a look at the average salaries of arts graduates--the return on investment is negative for most.