Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My URM girl applied to Berkeley Engineering and was rejected despite 4.0 gpa and high rigor (AP Physics I and 2), AP Calc BC... She got 34 on ACT but couldn't submit the score since they are test blind. She did get into her top choice so it didn't matter anyway...

Berkeley does not consider race and the engineering program is not meant to be balanced for male/female either. There are many girls who have much stronger stats with Physics C and multi variable calculus who get rejected so while your dd is strong, her rejection is not that surprising. She probably got into the top school because of race and gender balancing.

Your assumption that she got into her top school because of race and gender balancing proves the point that even though AA will be "eliminated", for some people, URMs will still be seen as admitted because of their race/gender. I read a story recently about an African American girl student at Berkeley who said people on campus told her this despite affirmative action being banned for the past 20+ years. My kid had top stats plus national awards in her activities and off the chart extracurriculars and recommendations to go along with the 4.0 GPA and 99th percentile ACT score (she took it only once) and yet you attribute her acceptance to the "top school" due to race/gender... The more things change, the more they stay the same....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I assume gender won't be able to be considered when the Supreme Court overturns affirmative action this summer?

I have wondered about this too. William & Mary accepts 42% of men and 33% of women, VT accepts 53% of men and 60% of women. Those are noticeable differences. If they are equal, classes will be especially skewed.

Court case is about race and race only. Schools are free to set up the gender balance they desire today and in the future. Most won’t go beyond a 60-40 split for the reasons cited elsewhere. So women at many schools applying for engineering do get a break but not a huge one.

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Anonymous wrote:Any stats to back up this view?

I know CMU admits a greater percentage of women than men; the disparity is greater than average.

This is true of MIT but it’s not because they’re less selective with women; the female applicant pool is stronger over all so a higher percentage of them end up being admitted.

Fewer women apply, and if they want even classes, a greater percentage will be admitted.

Yes, but the fewer women who apply have better stats than the men on average. So even if MIT (I use this as a example because the admissions office has been up front about these facts for years) didn’t look at the gender of incoming candidates when reviewing applications they’d still get a pretty well balanced class because the female applicants self select and the male ones don’t. So it’s not “easier” to get into MIT as a woman, even if a higher percentage of the women who apply are accepted.

+1000 This!

Women interested in STEM fields often undersell their abilities and don't apply to as many top schools as they are actually qualified for. Many men overestimate their abilities and apply to many more top schools. So the female applicant pool is smaller and already self-selected towards the strongest students, whereas the male applicant pool is much larger and just has more less qualified students. MIT has outreach programs to underrepresented high school students like https://mites.mit.edu/ and https://web.mit.edu/wtp/ to get strong high school students onto the campus and able to see themselves at MIT, so that they will apply. Even with active outreach, they still don't have parity.

All this is fine but the answer to OP's question is "Yes, girls really do have an admissions advantage for engineering schools." Common datasets for every school has enough data to prove this out. Virginia Tech has a fancy page that shows this as well. Don't know why we have to put up with 2 pages of denial and spin when the answer is pretty clear to a simple, straightforward question!

Where are these data sets, broken down by applicant scores and personal demographic?

Google "Common Dataset <University Name>"; Research each university's website for details by department. For example (as I pointed out earlier), Virginia Tech posts stats broken down by race, gender, generation, etc. for each department. Some others do that too (for you to find at the schools you care about). Now get off your lazy ass and do some research rather than asking others to. I'm in the business of teaching people how to fish, not...

As far as I can tell
https://udc.vt.edu/irdata/data/students/admission/index#college

Does not show admission broken down by SAT scores or GPA combined with gender.

Are you eating rotten fish?

SAT and GPA are not relevant. That info. is available only at the school level. Unless you are dense, the page you visited should clearly show that the acceptance rate is higher for women relative to men.

Anonymous wrote:What are percentage of girls at UVA and Va Tech engineering?

Surely you could have looked this up yourself?

https://eng.vt.edu/about/student-facts-and-figures.html

Yes

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My URM girl applied to Berkeley Engineering and was rejected despite 4.0 gpa and high rigor (AP Physics I and 2), AP Calc BC... She got 34 on ACT but couldn't submit the score since they are test blind. She did get into her top choice so it didn't matter anyway...

FYI--Physics 1&2 is not high rigor---PHysics C (Mech and E&M) is high rigor.

But yes, since Berkeley eng has low admission rates, plenty of people with "high stats" get rejected--it has nothing to do with race, but simply the fact there are more people applying than spaces and majority will get rejected

You need knowledge of class offerings at the applicant's high school to judge whether the student's classes represent high rigor. Also, DCUM seems to assume that URM students are admitted just by checking a box, instead of acknowledging the reality which is that URM's with high stats are both accepted and rejected at rates similar to other racial groups. URM's are well aware that the majority will be rejected.

Well going forward, checking the URM box will no longer be an option so hopefully people won't be able to make those assumptions.

Anonymous wrote:My URM girl applied to Berkeley Engineering and was rejected despite 4.0 gpa and high rigor (AP Physics I and 2), AP Calc BC... She got 34 on ACT but couldn't submit the score since they are test blind. She did get into her top choice so it didn't matter anyway...

Berkeley does not consider race and the engineering program is not meant to be balanced for male/female either. There are many girls who have much stronger stats with Physics C and multi variable calculus who get rejected so while your dd is strong, her rejection is not that surprising. She probably got into the top school because of race and gender balancing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My URM girl applied to Berkeley Engineering and was rejected despite 4.0 gpa and high rigor (AP Physics I and 2), AP Calc BC... She got 34 on ACT but couldn't submit the score since they are test blind. She did get into her top choice so it didn't matter anyway...

FYI--Physics 1&2 is not high rigor---PHysics C (Mech and E&M) is high rigor.

But yes, since Berkeley eng has low admission rates, plenty of people with "high stats" get rejected--it has nothing to do with race, but simply the fact there are more people applying than spaces and majority will get rejected

You need knowledge of class offerings at the applicant's high school to judge whether the student's classes represent high rigor. Also, DCUM seems to assume that URM students are admitted just by checking a box, instead of acknowledging the reality which is that URM's with high stats are both accepted and rejected at rates similar to other racial groups. URM's are well aware that the majority will be rejected.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My URM girl applied to Berkeley Engineering and was rejected despite 4.0 gpa and high rigor (AP Physics I and 2), AP Calc BC... She got 34 on ACT but couldn't submit the score since they are test blind. She did get into her top choice so it didn't matter anyway...

FYI--Physics 1&2 is not high rigor---PHysics C (Mech and E&M) is high rigor.

But yes, since Berkeley eng has low admission rates, plenty of people with "high stats" get rejected--it has nothing to do with race, but simply the fact there are more people applying than spaces and majority will get rejected

Meant to say she took AP Physics C (Mech)... As for why she got rejected, the same can be said about any school. Far too many people apply than spaces. I wanted to point this out because people just assume URM girls like her would get admitted to engineering schools. Obviously this is anecdotal but has been our lived experience.

FYI--Physics 1&2 is not high rigor---PHysics C (Mech and E&M) is high rigor.

NP. AP Cal BC is high rigor so bugger off. PP's DD is going to to her top choice school so what are you on about?

Anonymous wrote:What are percentage of girls at UVA and Va Tech engineering?

Don’t know VT, but UVA Engineering school is ballpark 10-15% women, mostly CS. Well qualified women, particularly if saying at admissions time they want a specific major other than CS, will have higher admissions probability than equally qualified men.

Anonymous wrote:My URM girl applied to Berkeley Engineering and was rejected despite 4.0 gpa and high rigor (AP Physics I and 2), AP Calc BC... She got 34 on ACT but couldn't submit the score since they are test blind. She did get into her top choice so it didn't matter anyway...

FYI--Physics 1&2 is not high rigor---PHysics C (Mech and E&M) is high rigor.

But yes, since Berkeley eng has low admission rates, plenty of people with "high stats" get rejected--it has nothing to do with race, but simply the fact there are more people applying than spaces and majority will get rejected

I've been searching all day for a similar tool to the above posted on for Va Tech. The one where you can input gender and major and see acceptance rate. Anyone who found a similar tool at any other college please post link.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any stats to back up this view?

I know CMU admits a greater percentage of women than men; the disparity is greater than average.

This is true of MIT but it’s not because they’re less selective with women; the female applicant pool is stronger over all so a higher percentage of them end up being admitted.

What an idiotic answer.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any stats to back up this view?

I know CMU admits a greater percentage of women than men; the disparity is greater than average.

This is true of MIT but it’s not because they’re less selective with women; the female applicant pool is stronger over all so a higher percentage of them end up being admitted.

Fewer women apply, and if they want even classes, a greater percentage will be admitted.

Yes, but the fewer women who apply have better stats than the men on average. So even if MIT (I use this as a example because the admissions office has been up front about these facts for years) didn’t look at the gender of incoming candidates when reviewing applications they’d still get a pretty well balanced class because the female applicants self select and the male ones don’t. So it’s not “easier” to get into MIT as a woman, even if a higher percentage of the women who apply are accepted.

+1000 This!

Women interested in STEM fields often undersell their abilities and don't apply to as many top schools as they are actually qualified for. Many men overestimate their abilities and apply to many more top schools. So the female applicant pool is smaller and already self-selected towards the strongest students, whereas the male applicant pool is much larger and just has more less qualified students. MIT has outreach programs to underrepresented high school students like https://mites.mit.edu/ and https://web.mit.edu/wtp/ to get strong high school students onto the campus and able to see themselves at MIT, so that they will apply. Even with active outreach, they still don't have parity.

All this is fine but the answer to OP's question is "Yes, girls really do have an admissions advantage for engineering schools." Common datasets for every school has enough data to prove this out. Virginia Tech has a fancy page that shows this as well. Don't know why we have to put up with 2 pages of denial and spin when the answer is pretty clear to a simple, straightforward question!

Where are these data sets, broken down by applicant scores and personal demographic?

Google "Common Dataset <University Name>"; Research each university's website for details by department. For example (as I pointed out earlier), Virginia Tech posts stats broken down by race, gender, generation, etc. for each department. Some others do that too (for you to find at the schools you care about). Now get off your lazy ass and do some research rather than asking others to. I'm in the business of teaching people how to fish, not...

As far as I can tell
https://udc.vt.edu/irdata/data/students/admission/index#college

Does not show admission broken down by SAT scores or GPA combined with gender.


Are you eating rotten fish?