Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 11:33     Subject: Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
It's a strange bunch on ANC 3C. They think they're progressive but they're really more libertarian about property rights and see themselves as dictators of social policy. I would certainly NEVER attend this event, but I also don't want any single commissioner telling me what is or is not appropriate speech. Our inability to listen to opposing views is killing our society.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 11:31     Subject: Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The same ANC rep threatened to shut down any business that treated workers unfairly. She's young and idealistic, but like many other 3C ANC reps think they were elected to push forward their own views rather than represent their consituents.


I don’t really care about her idealism or whether she misunderstands her constituents. she should not be making public threats about unconstitutional actions.


Well, that's her 1st Amendment right. Her constituents can vote her out for her manic online behavior.

But let's make something explicitly clear: this ANC rep has exactly zero power over the DC government or the local library. She can post whatever Twitter-Twatter she wants, but she is effectively toothless.

Do we actually have a confirmation that the library event was canceled? I'm not believing anything that comes from Very Online People.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 11:07     Subject: Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:The same ANC rep threatened to shut down any business that treated workers unfairly. She's young and idealistic, but like many other 3C ANC reps think they were elected to push forward their own views rather than represent their consituents.


I don’t really care about her idealism or whether she misunderstands her constituents. she should not be making public threats about unconstitutional actions.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 11:06     Subject: Re:Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:I have no idea what grounds led to the event being cancelled and, without knowing that, I don't whether the cancellation was justified. But I think it is important to know that these were not just "right-wing personalities". Chaya Raichik is the person behind LibsofTiktok and Jack Posobiec was one of the main proponents of PizzaGate. Both have been linked to acts of violence. In Posobiec's case, it was just up the street from the library. I find it interesting that the Ward 2 Chair of the DC GOP apparently reserved the room for this group.




Please expand on this statement.


Certainly you are aware of the armed attack and attempted arson at Comet Pingpong that resulted from Posobiec's PizzaGate conspiracy theories. For some background on Libsoftiktok, see this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/02/lgbtq-threats-hospitals-libs-of-tiktok/

Both were also involved in the January 6 events at the Capitol.



these are not the kind of links that justify prior restraint under the 1st Amend. The standard is extremely high.



Except the precedent for determining WHERE free speech can be exercised is well set. Jack and company are still free to demonstrate on the street outside if they wish. But the SCOTUS has certainly upheld the notion of "free speech zones" at events. I think the library is probably well within its rights to deny space if they have reasonable reason to fear violence.


false. this is not what the First Amendment says.


But it IS what the Supreme Court of the United States has interpreted it mean.


No, it is not what the Supreme Court has held. A public forum cannot deny free speech based on a fear -- no matter how well-founded -- that the exercise of free speech will lead to violence (either by those who support the speaker or those who oppose the speaker). That's a prior restraint (or "heckler's veto") and it is not permitted. As a PP mentioned, if there is a fear of violence, the government has a duty to provide an appropriate police presence to permit the event to go forward. The Supreme Court has held that speech promoting/encouraging violence may fall outside the protection of the 1st Amendment, but that is a different issue.

The 1st Amendment does permit reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions on speech (i.e. you can only hold an event at a library when it is open), but those must be applied on a viewpoint/content-neutral basis and cannot have anything to do with the crowd's anticipated reaction to the speech.


exactly. flip the script - could the library cancel a drag queen story hour on the grounds that probosiec et al were going to protest?
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 11:04     Subject: Re:Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:I have no idea what grounds led to the event being cancelled and, without knowing that, I don't whether the cancellation was justified. But I think it is important to know that these were not just "right-wing personalities". Chaya Raichik is the person behind LibsofTiktok and Jack Posobiec was one of the main proponents of PizzaGate. Both have been linked to acts of violence. In Posobiec's case, it was just up the street from the library. I find it interesting that the Ward 2 Chair of the DC GOP apparently reserved the room for this group.




Please expand on this statement.


Certainly you are aware of the armed attack and attempted arson at Comet Pingpong that resulted from Posobiec's PizzaGate conspiracy theories. For some background on Libsoftiktok, see this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/02/lgbtq-threats-hospitals-libs-of-tiktok/

Both were also involved in the January 6 events at the Capitol.



these are not the kind of links that justify prior restraint under the 1st Amend. The standard is extremely high.



Except the precedent for determining WHERE free speech can be exercised is well set. Jack and company are still free to demonstrate on the street outside if they wish. But the SCOTUS has certainly upheld the notion of "free speech zones" at events. I think the library is probably well within its rights to deny space if they have reasonable reason to fear violence.


false. this is not what the First Amendment says.


But it IS what the Supreme Court of the United States has interpreted it mean.


please cite the case law where access can be denied based on “reasonable fear of violence,” apply it to the facts of the case, and distinguish from other library permits.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 10:58     Subject: Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
The same ANC rep threatened to shut down any business that treated workers unfairly. She's young and idealistic, but like many other 3C ANC reps think they were elected to push forward their own views rather than represent their consituents.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 10:27     Subject: Re:Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:I have no idea what grounds led to the event being cancelled and, without knowing that, I don't whether the cancellation was justified. But I think it is important to know that these were not just "right-wing personalities". Chaya Raichik is the person behind LibsofTiktok and Jack Posobiec was one of the main proponents of PizzaGate. Both have been linked to acts of violence. In Posobiec's case, it was just up the street from the library. I find it interesting that the Ward 2 Chair of the DC GOP apparently reserved the room for this group.




Please expand on this statement.


Certainly you are aware of the armed attack and attempted arson at Comet Pingpong that resulted from Posobiec's PizzaGate conspiracy theories. For some background on Libsoftiktok, see this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/02/lgbtq-threats-hospitals-libs-of-tiktok/

Both were also involved in the January 6 events at the Capitol.



these are not the kind of links that justify prior restraint under the 1st Amend. The standard is extremely high.


+100

For the record, Constitutional scholar Walter Sobchak has noted that the SC has roundly rejected prior restraint.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 09:57     Subject: Re:Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:I have no idea what grounds led to the event being cancelled and, without knowing that, I don't whether the cancellation was justified. But I think it is important to know that these were not just "right-wing personalities". Chaya Raichik is the person behind LibsofTiktok and Jack Posobiec was one of the main proponents of PizzaGate. Both have been linked to acts of violence. In Posobiec's case, it was just up the street from the library. I find it interesting that the Ward 2 Chair of the DC GOP apparently reserved the room for this group.




Please expand on this statement.


Certainly you are aware of the armed attack and attempted arson at Comet Pingpong that resulted from Posobiec's PizzaGate conspiracy theories. For some background on Libsoftiktok, see this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/02/lgbtq-threats-hospitals-libs-of-tiktok/

Both were also involved in the January 6 events at the Capitol.



these are not the kind of links that justify prior restraint under the 1st Amend. The standard is extremely high.



Except the precedent for determining WHERE free speech can be exercised is well set. Jack and company are still free to demonstrate on the street outside if they wish. But the SCOTUS has certainly upheld the notion of "free speech zones" at events. I think the library is probably well within its rights to deny space if they have reasonable reason to fear violence.


false. this is not what the First Amendment says.


But it IS what the Supreme Court of the United States has interpreted it mean.


No, it is not what the Supreme Court has held. A public forum cannot deny free speech based on a fear -- no matter how well-founded -- that the exercise of free speech will lead to violence (either by those who support the speaker or those who oppose the speaker). That's a prior restraint (or "heckler's veto") and it is not permitted. As a PP mentioned, if there is a fear of violence, the government has a duty to provide an appropriate police presence to permit the event to go forward. The Supreme Court has held that speech promoting/encouraging violence may fall outside the protection of the 1st Amendment, but that is a different issue.

The 1st Amendment does permit reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions on speech (i.e. you can only hold an event at a library when it is open), but those must be applied on a viewpoint/content-neutral basis and cannot have anything to do with the crowd's anticipated reaction to the speech.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 09:38     Subject: Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Jack and company will be reading "The Children's Story," by James Clavell, right?

Because they hate America and all that it stands for? Amrite?
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 09:37     Subject: Re:Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:I have no idea what grounds led to the event being cancelled and, without knowing that, I don't whether the cancellation was justified. But I think it is important to know that these were not just "right-wing personalities". Chaya Raichik is the person behind LibsofTiktok and Jack Posobiec was one of the main proponents of PizzaGate. Both have been linked to acts of violence. In Posobiec's case, it was just up the street from the library. I find it interesting that the Ward 2 Chair of the DC GOP apparently reserved the room for this group.




Please expand on this statement.


Certainly you are aware of the armed attack and attempted arson at Comet Pingpong that resulted from Posobiec's PizzaGate conspiracy theories. For some background on Libsoftiktok, see this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/02/lgbtq-threats-hospitals-libs-of-tiktok/

Both were also involved in the January 6 events at the Capitol.



these are not the kind of links that justify prior restraint under the 1st Amend. The standard is extremely high.



Except the precedent for determining WHERE free speech can be exercised is well set. Jack and company are still free to demonstrate on the street outside if they wish. But the SCOTUS has certainly upheld the notion of "free speech zones" at events. I think the library is probably well within its rights to deny space if they have reasonable reason to fear violence.


Except that the only reason why the library would fear violence is if leftist provocateurs show up at the event. This is not a violent event. It is reading a freaking book for kids. Yes Kirk Cameron is a religious nut who doesn’t believe in evolution but if people want their kids to hear whatever ridiculous book he has chosen to read, that’s up to them. People showing up and provoking them is the real problem and is just as bad as the idiot right wingers who show up to drag story time. Just leave it alone.


How dare you appropriate the language I used to accurately describe the likes of Probsiec and his ilk? People pushing back at their nonsense may be silly to take the bait but they're not the "provocateurs." That label is owned exclusively by bad-faith right-wingers who do nothing but try to inflame tensions.


Well that is so silly, I assume this is a troll.


Well, no. I'm not. By definition, someone reacting to a provocateur cannot be a provocateur themselves. Were you born stupid or were you dropped on your head as a baby or something?
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 09:28     Subject: Re:Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:I have no idea what grounds led to the event being cancelled and, without knowing that, I don't whether the cancellation was justified. But I think it is important to know that these were not just "right-wing personalities". Chaya Raichik is the person behind LibsofTiktok and Jack Posobiec was one of the main proponents of PizzaGate. Both have been linked to acts of violence. In Posobiec's case, it was just up the street from the library. I find it interesting that the Ward 2 Chair of the DC GOP apparently reserved the room for this group.




Please expand on this statement.


Certainly you are aware of the armed attack and attempted arson at Comet Pingpong that resulted from Posobiec's PizzaGate conspiracy theories. For some background on Libsoftiktok, see this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/02/lgbtq-threats-hospitals-libs-of-tiktok/

Both were also involved in the January 6 events at the Capitol.



these are not the kind of links that justify prior restraint under the 1st Amend. The standard is extremely high.



Except the precedent for determining WHERE free speech can be exercised is well set. Jack and company are still free to demonstrate on the street outside if they wish. But the SCOTUS has certainly upheld the notion of "free speech zones" at events. I think the library is probably well within its rights to deny space if they have reasonable reason to fear violence.


false. this is not what the First Amendment says.


But it IS what the Supreme Court of the United States has interpreted it mean.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 09:27     Subject: Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It’s not difficult to support their right to have the meeting and still object to them politically. You seem to be mixed up about the difference.


+1

This is how free speech works. If an elected rep doesn't understand that, they don't deserve to be an elected rep.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 09:24     Subject: Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:Just amazing. If a drag queen story hour were cancelled, these dopes would be marching in the streets. This kind of stunt is so instructive.


It’s not at all clear that it HAS been canceled. And the responses (not that they’re representative) have all been clear that they have a right to do this story hour as long as it’s within the rules of the library.

It’s not difficult to support their right to have the meeting and still object to them politically. You seem to be mixed up about the difference.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 09:23     Subject: Re:Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:I have no idea what grounds led to the event being cancelled and, without knowing that, I don't whether the cancellation was justified. But I think it is important to know that these were not just "right-wing personalities". Chaya Raichik is the person behind LibsofTiktok and Jack Posobiec was one of the main proponents of PizzaGate. Both have been linked to acts of violence. In Posobiec's case, it was just up the street from the library. I find it interesting that the Ward 2 Chair of the DC GOP apparently reserved the room for this group.




Please expand on this statement.


Certainly you are aware of the armed attack and attempted arson at Comet Pingpong that resulted from Posobiec's PizzaGate conspiracy theories. For some background on Libsoftiktok, see this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/09/02/lgbtq-threats-hospitals-libs-of-tiktok/

Both were also involved in the January 6 events at the Capitol.



these are not the kind of links that justify prior restraint under the 1st Amend. The standard is extremely high.



Except the precedent for determining WHERE free speech can be exercised is well set. Jack and company are still free to demonstrate on the street outside if they wish. But the SCOTUS has certainly upheld the notion of "free speech zones" at events. I think the library is probably well within its rights to deny space if they have reasonable reason to fear violence.


Except that the only reason why the library would fear violence is if leftist provocateurs show up at the event. This is not a violent event. It is reading a freaking book for kids. Yes Kirk Cameron is a religious nut who doesn’t believe in evolution but if people want their kids to hear whatever ridiculous book he has chosen to read, that’s up to them. People showing up and provoking them is the real problem and is just as bad as the idiot right wingers who show up to drag story time. Just leave it alone.


How dare you appropriate the language I used to accurately describe the likes of Probsiec and his ilk? People pushing back at their nonsense may be silly to take the bait but they're not the "provocateurs." That label is owned exclusively by bad-faith right-wingers who do nothing but try to inflame tensions.
Anonymous
Post 03/27/2023 09:20     Subject: Canceled Right-Wing Event at the Cleveland Park Library
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Sheesh - the ANC Commissioner is out there. I get that DC is very progressive but someone should vote her out. Hopefully we can get rid of the wing nuts on both sides.


Under what authority did this ANC Commissioner act? Was there notice and meeting discussion that she would take this stance? Or, was this done ex parte? She was not elected to be the library police. It’s interesting that she has found this new calling to library safety yet she’s been completely silent about the rampant uptick in violent and property crime.


ANC members have pretty much zero power. They can write letters to the Zoning Board of Appeals and DCRA about liquor licenses for/against applications. But that’s pretty much it. This ANC character feels like a Very Online Person. She certainly has no clout with DCPL and cannot tell them how to act.

My guess is that the person who applied to reserve the room at the library won’t actually be there to host it. Or did something else that broke the rules, like hosting a commercial event for their new line of kids books. They very likely broke the rules.


+1, if the event is actually canceled (no one has shown that it is) it will be something like this and they’ll just have to rent another room according to the rules. If the ANC commissioner complained I don’t think being the ANC rep would make any difference. It shouldn’t.