Anonymous
Post 04/05/2023 12:11     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
How about just two categories:

(1) biological females who have not undergone testosterone therapy.

*I understand that it is not straightforward to define what is a biological female, but some definition could be attempted

(2) open-category which can include biological males, trans-boys, trans-girls, non-binary, and even biological females if they wish to compete in the open category

And everyone can wear a bathing suit that covers their torso if they would like to
Anonymous
Post 04/04/2023 12:30     Subject: Re:What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You don’t sound very familiar with A meet at a dual meet format. Do you have a HS or college swimmer (I do and I was one- which means I’m also very familiar with club meets). So A meats run one heat of boys and one heat of girls. If you mix genders you have two heats 3 scoring entries per team per event. A trans girl swimmer would have to fill a male slot in the entries and then you could race them based on time, the fastest heat would usually be all the boys and the first heat girls (but you’d have a few exceptions especially at teams without a lot of year round swimmers)


This isn’t rocket science. Enter the kids and their seed times. Run the mixed gender/age heats. Calculate the scores at the end depending on time. The times supercede the order of heat finishes. Accept thanks from parents for a shortened meet.


I don’t think you know how nvsl ‘a’ meets work. USA seimming meeting are not run like ‘a’ meets. In an a meet each team gets to enter 3 boys and 3 girls in each age group event. They are assigned lanes by team, not by time. So there is not a way to accommodate’ a biological boy who wants to swim in the girls event. It’s definitely not shortening the meet. The meet is just 1 heat of everything. B meets vary much more.
Anonymous
Post 04/04/2023 11:05     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:I don’t really see a problem with letting swimmers wear whatever bathing suit they want, but having them swim in the category of their genetic sex. It is the most fair option given the choices that we have.


Those with more knowledge of swimming can correct me, but I believe there is some slight advantage in moving through the water from wearing a bathing suit that covers the torso, versus one that does not. So a trans girl swimming in the boy's heat but wearing a women's bathing suit might gain some advantage that way.
Anonymous
Post 04/04/2023 09:43     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:

My biological son now is identifying as female (16). My husband and I are divorced and my child can choose between Colonial league (my husband's pool) or NVSL (through me) since my child splits their time. How is this handled with the various leagues? What are the policies? And can anyone point me to the regs?



Your 16 year old has surpassed puberty. He would have a great advantage over any 16 year old girl. It's biology and physics - not politics. I would just BET he wants to swim against girls. Why not?? He WILL take a scholarship spot, a medal spot etc from a very much deserving girl who has worked hard her whole life.
Anonymous
Post 04/04/2023 09:41     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



Which league?

Does that work both ways? Could my trans son win events they didn't swim in? That seems really awkward.


I don't think trans men have an advantage over biological men.


The dont. They do, however, have a huge advantage over biological girls.
Anonymous
Post 04/04/2023 09:14     Subject: Re:What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:You don’t sound very familiar with A meet at a dual meet format. Do you have a HS or college swimmer (I do and I was one- which means I’m also very familiar with club meets). So A meats run one heat of boys and one heat of girls. If you mix genders you have two heats 3 scoring entries per team per event. A trans girl swimmer would have to fill a male slot in the entries and then you could race them based on time, the fastest heat would usually be all the boys and the first heat girls (but you’d have a few exceptions especially at teams without a lot of year round swimmers)


This isn’t rocket science. Enter the kids and their seed times. Run the mixed gender/age heats. Calculate the scores at the end depending on time. The times supercede the order of heat finishes. Accept thanks from parents for a shortened meet.
Anonymous
Post 04/04/2023 08:58     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
I don’t really see a problem with letting swimmers wear whatever bathing suit they want, but having them swim in the category of their genetic sex. It is the most fair option given the choices that we have.
Anonymous
Post 04/04/2023 06:45     Subject: Re:What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
You don’t sound very familiar with A meet at a dual meet format. Do you have a HS or college swimmer (I do and I was one- which means I’m also very familiar with club meets). So A meats run one heat of boys and one heat of girls. If you mix genders you have two heats 3 scoring entries per team per event. A trans girl swimmer would have to fill a male slot in the entries and then you could race them based on time, the fastest heat would usually be all the boys and the first heat girls (but you’d have a few exceptions especially at teams without a lot of year round swimmers)
Anonymous
Post 04/04/2023 00:09     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



Which league?

Does that work both ways? Could my trans son win events they didn't swim in? That seems really awkward.


I don't think trans men have an advantage over biological men.


You are missing the point. PP is pointing out the odd result of winning without head-to-head racing. It is a bit of an issue as a lot of the older kids can moderate their effort to maximize points based on who’s in the pool with them. A 16 yr old who can easily get second in backstroke but has no chance of winning May conserve energy for their next race. Having someone swimming with the other gender but scoring with yours will throw a wrinkle in this. May be the best outcome, but it is worth considering.


Everything seems strange until it isn’t. This happens all the time in some official USA swimming club meets, as a pp has said. The results are reported broken out by age and gender, but the heats are run together. Swimmers learn to swim their own race, knowing that their competitors might not be in the same heat. Yes, a swimmer can win an event and not have gone head to head with the second place swimmer. This happens pretty often in the younger age groups and less often in the older ones. I’ve never heard anyone comment or complain about this, not even the kids.

I think that rec swimmers and their parents get more enjoyment and pleasure from winning a heat than club swimmers and their parents, who see most meets as a way to get times to qualify for bigger meets down the line. This isn’t a criticism of rec swimming - their meets serve a different purpose than club meets, so it makes sense that having a traditional heat format and winner is more important to them. Swimmers in club meets never “moderate their efforts” unless they are swimming a prelim/final format, because they care about their times much more than points. I would consider it a minor issue that is less important than trimming the timeline so that the meet is a reasonable length, or allowing swimmers to swim with their gender identity.



The comments above are I in response to the suggestion that trans kids swim with one gender and be scored with another, not the blended heats idea. And I’m not thinking of heat winners at B meets but the single heat at A meets where all swimmers are traditionally swimming against each other, can see the competition, and points are on the line that dictate the outcome of the meet.


USA swimming events also are run like an “A” meet unless it’s one that has prelims and finals, in which case I don’t think there is a recreational swim equivalent for those. And some of them are still run as mixed heats. I get your concern, but rec swim is not a unicorn that has to have separate heats for boys and girls. Plenty of club meets run mixed heats and still declare a club the winner at the end based on points. I agree that rec swim is more fun for parents to watch with the traditional format, but since competitive swim meets make it work, I’m sure rec swim can as well. If swimmers are paying attention, they can see their competition swim, and would likely have similar times and be in the same heat as them anyway.
Anonymous
Post 04/03/2023 05:26     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



Which league?

Does that work both ways? Could my trans son win events they didn't swim in? That seems really awkward.


I don't think trans men have an advantage over biological men.


You are missing the point. PP is pointing out the odd result of winning without head-to-head racing. It is a bit of an issue as a lot of the older kids can moderate their effort to maximize points based on who’s in the pool with them. A 16 yr old who can easily get second in backstroke but has no chance of winning May conserve energy for their next race. Having someone swimming with the other gender but scoring with yours will throw a wrinkle in this. May be the best outcome, but it is worth considering.


Everything seems strange until it isn’t. This happens all the time in some official USA swimming club meets, as a pp has said. The results are reported broken out by age and gender, but the heats are run together. Swimmers learn to swim their own race, knowing that their competitors might not be in the same heat. Yes, a swimmer can win an event and not have gone head to head with the second place swimmer. This happens pretty often in the younger age groups and less often in the older ones. I’ve never heard anyone comment or complain about this, not even the kids.

I think that rec swimmers and their parents get more enjoyment and pleasure from winning a heat than club swimmers and their parents, who see most meets as a way to get times to qualify for bigger meets down the line. This isn’t a criticism of rec swimming - their meets serve a different purpose than club meets, so it makes sense that having a traditional heat format and winner is more important to them. Swimmers in club meets never “moderate their efforts” unless they are swimming a prelim/final format, because they care about their times much more than points. I would consider it a minor issue that is less important than trimming the timeline so that the meet is a reasonable length, or allowing swimmers to swim with their gender identity.



The comments above are I in response to the suggestion that trans kids swim with one gender and be scored with another, not the blended heats idea. And I’m not thinking of heat winners at B meets but the single heat at A meets where all swimmers are traditionally swimming against each other, can see the competition, and points are on the line that dictate the outcome of the meet.
Anonymous
Post 04/02/2023 23:31     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



Which league?

Does that work both ways? Could my trans son win events they didn't swim in? That seems really awkward.


I don't think trans men have an advantage over biological men.


You are missing the point. PP is pointing out the odd result of winning without head-to-head racing. It is a bit of an issue as a lot of the older kids can moderate their effort to maximize points based on who’s in the pool with them. A 16 yr old who can easily get second in backstroke but has no chance of winning May conserve energy for their next race. Having someone swimming with the other gender but scoring with yours will throw a wrinkle in this. May be the best outcome, but it is worth considering.


Everything seems strange until it isn’t. This happens all the time in some official USA swimming club meets, as a pp has said. The results are reported broken out by age and gender, but the heats are run together. Swimmers learn to swim their own race, knowing that their competitors might not be in the same heat. Yes, a swimmer can win an event and not have gone head to head with the second place swimmer. This happens pretty often in the younger age groups and less often in the older ones. I’ve never heard anyone comment or complain about this, not even the kids.

I think that rec swimmers and their parents get more enjoyment and pleasure from winning a heat than club swimmers and their parents, who see most meets as a way to get times to qualify for bigger meets down the line. This isn’t a criticism of rec swimming - their meets serve a different purpose than club meets, so it makes sense that having a traditional heat format and winner is more important to them. Swimmers in club meets never “moderate their efforts” unless they are swimming a prelim/final format, because they care about their times much more than points. I would consider it a minor issue that is less important than trimming the timeline so that the meet is a reasonable length, or allowing swimmers to swim with their gender identity.
Anonymous
Post 04/02/2023 21:19     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



Which league?

Does that work both ways? Could my trans son win events they didn't swim in? That seems really awkward.


I don't think trans men have an advantage over biological men.


You are missing the point. PP is pointing out the odd result of winning without head-to-head racing. It is a bit of an issue as a lot of the older kids can moderate their effort to maximize points based on who’s in the pool with them. A 16 yr old who can easily get second in backstroke but has no chance of winning May conserve energy for their next race. Having someone swimming with the other gender but scoring with yours will throw a wrinkle in this. May be the best outcome, but it is worth considering.
Anonymous
Post 04/02/2023 19:53     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



How does that work? For a race, each team gets three lane. A swimmer whose swim wasn't being scored would mean the team is forfeiting that lane. It also seems unfair to score them against a heat they aren't in because racers look to the side to pace themselves


That's a good point.

And this is why we need to have honest and respectful conversation about how when we open things up to trans female, we MAY be displacing biological females. And we need to ask ourselves if thats ok.

That's not to demonize the trans community or suggest that they shouldn't be their authentic selves. But also that their decisions and actions dont happen in a vacuum.

In this scenario, I think the athlete should swim with their biological peers


Why are you hedging. Seems like a foregone conclusion.
Anonymous
Post 04/02/2023 19:51     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



Which league?

Does that work both ways? Could my trans son win events they didn't swim in? That seems really awkward.


I don't think trans men have an advantage over biological men.
Anonymous
Post 04/02/2023 19:33     Subject: What are the various summer leagues policies on swimmers and gender identification
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In our league, the child can swim in their chosen (for lack of a better word) gender's events, but will be scored in their biological gender's events. So your trans daughter could swim with the girls but will appear on the meet results as a boy.



This is probably the fairest approach


The fairest approach would be to have them swim in their own category for Trans girls.


The heart of this debate is whether to prioritize validating gender identity or fairness in sports. Fairness is undoubtably the priority when people suggest an open category or a trans male to female category, but not a separate trans female to male category. No one is concerned about a trans male outclassing XY males, so no one argues that they shouldn’t compete with them. Then there is a practicality issue. There are probably not enough trans girls to compete against each other - is she supposed to swim by herself in every event?

If respecting gender identity was the priority, I think trans girls who transition after puberty should compete as girls. But if fairness in sport is the priority, then it should be an open category. Sports should state (and admit) that their categories of male and female are not gender identity categories, but whether development was testosterone influenced or not. That’s what people should care about if the priority is fairness - did this kid develop muscle strength, ability to gain muscle with resistance training, bone growth, etc with testosterone or not? Obviously there are many nuanced cases that are not black and white under this umbrella, so the answer is not that simple.



This is exactly right. As I have thought about this issue as a liberal and former female college swimmer, I think that (1) I agree that in a lot of ways binary gender identity and roles burden all of us and I could get onboard with adopting gender-neutral pronouns for everyone; but (2) in a world in which everyone is unconstrained by their birth sex and gender is more fluid and unimportant, do we have two divisions in sports at all? If we don’t preserve female sports in that world, we’ll be back to having virtually no opportunities for female.