Anonymous
03/05/2023 22:10
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Man here. Father of two (girls, 11 and 13). And I’m enlightened yadda yadda. My mom worked full time forever with an advanced degree. But still I’d say a reluctant truth is that a lot of men just don’t have the makeup to be doting parents and raise kids. Really nurture and raise them. They just don’t want to do it. They could hit just don’t like doing it. They can and like to do tasks. But bro g responsible for the emotional crap with kids? Screw it. I’m sick of it and it is massively unpleasant work to do it. My own skill set clearly lies in things like: wooing and bedding women or a woman, making her and them safe, doing hard labor, thinking deep thoughts and clearly, being decisive, and I’d have been a damn good warrior if I had had to do that. But nurturing whiny kids? I just hate it.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 22:10
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
You are confusing marriage and sex.
You're going to have to flesh this out a bit if you want to defend your point. Men, at a population.level, are driven by sex. They're not going to strive to be the best version of themselves that women desire if they have plenty of access to sex from women who are not yet thinking about marriage.
And I'm not blaming women for having sex before marriage. If in the past virginity was prized and a signal of desirability, today having plenty of experience and being great in bed from the get-go is desirable. I'm not advocating we go back to the days of stigmatizing premarital sex but years of meaningless sex has created a new set of material problems btwn the sexes that the OP is trying to articulate.
And women won’t feel compelled to settle for a man-child if they can get D without having to play mom.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 22:09
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Men’s rights activists aren’t violent or thugs, they’re just men who noticed some of the evident societal and systemic biases against men and spoke up against them. For which they were smeared of course
What about the self-avowed MRA’ers who have committed violent crimes against women? That violence is a mystery?
Anonymous
03/05/2023 22:05
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a thought, you could spend more time evaluating why people think you’re sort of a group that encourages abuse, rape, etc. instead of drafting your next think piece. Try to be introspective and not dig in your heels.
I've thought about it. Should I also spend some time evaluating why people think I'm a woman trolling as a man? People get labels online, shocker. Not the subject of this thread though. Thanks.
Yes, you should spend time wondering why people are perceiving you differently from what you believe yourself to be. As a woman sure, but MRAs have a body count. If someone mistook me for a member of a group of violent thugs (or violence endorsing thugs) I’d have bigger things to worry about than trying to stir controversy online.
Now remember, your instructions are not to dig in your heels.
You just can't help yourself, can you?
Create a different thread for that subject and stop derailing this one. I think it's a very interesting and clever framing of the subject. Thanks.
It’s very weird and probably a symptom of NPD to need to tell an Internet forum that you think you’re interesting and clever. We know you think you’re interesting, but there are already many threads on this.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:58
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
Can you share the pieces re: toxic masculinity and single motherhood?
I understand the phenomenon of "luxury beliefs" and I think it is rampant, but I think you (or Rob) are giving it way too much explanatory power with regard to the decimation of the working class, which I would attribute more to technological and economic forces. To be sure, there are some cultural forces at work as well, but they are myriad. Keying in on the memification of toxic masculinity is doing a lot of work. Moreover the typical indica of toxic masculinity tend to thrive or be more prevalent in lower class communities, and that phenomenon precedes the proliferation of what you are deeming the memification of toxic masculinity, which is relatively recent phenomenon.
Likewise, I'm not sure what is meant by "single motherhood". Perhaps destigmatizing single motherhood? Again, this has been a issue beleaguering lower classes for decades, so I have some trouble with the top down attribution.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:52
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
You are confusing marriage and sex.
You're going to have to flesh this out a bit if you want to defend your point. Men, at a population.level, are driven by sex. They're not going to strive to be the best version of themselves that women desire if they have plenty of access to sex from women who are not yet thinking about marriage.
And I'm not blaming women for having sex before marriage. If in the past virginity was prized and a signal of desirability, today having plenty of experience and being great in bed from the get-go is desirable. I'm not advocating we go back to the days of stigmatizing premarital sex but years of meaningless sex has created a new set of material problems btwn the sexes that the OP is trying to articulate.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:38
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
The working class folks are the ones who are doing it wrong; that’s why they’re working class after all.
You don't get it. They have so many intergenerational problems stacked against them. The gendered social norms and traditional family structures that elites can get away with criticizing (think about how many ppl are pro-polyamory on this board) have decimated working class families.
https://open.substack.com/pub/robkhenderson/p/thorstein-veblens-theory-of-the-leisure?r=5pwik&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:32
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
Like all of the Ivy League "defund the police" types?
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:29
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
You are confusing marriage and sex.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:27
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
Toxic masculinity is real.
Yep. But toxic masculinity as a meme is not.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:20
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
The working class folks are the ones who are doing it wrong; that’s why they’re working class after all.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:19
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
Toxic masculinity is real.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 21:15
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
The opportunity cost and risk to a woman of having kids is extremely high (could end up a poor single mother) so we have to vet carefully.
Are you saying that women should not sleep with any men they wouldn't have children with? We can't really have it both ways without consequences.
Maybe that's the elephant in the room. Hook up culture is bad for both men and women- at all ages, but especially young adults. Not really sure how you get that cat back in the bag though. But well-educated elites can recover from the consequences far more easily than the working class.
OP, I'm the who recommended the Modern Wisdom podcasts. I also recommend subscribing to a Substack by a guy named Rob Henderson. Interesting background that I won't go into here but he popularized a term called "Luxury Beliefs," which are basically ideas, lifestyles and language that the elite develop to separate themselves from the masses. They're ideas that they espouse but don't actually follow or use $ to mitigate fall out from (like hook up culture, single motherhood) but that have trickled down to the working class and decimated their lives. The mainstreaming of toxic masculinity as meme in the nat'l zeitgeist has destroyed working class families in a way that most people who populate this board have no concept of.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 20:25
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Reluctant truth: women don’t want to “marry down,” including enlightened feminists. In fact, a woman will remain single or have children with donor sperm before they willingly marry down.
That is just a normal truth, not a reluctant truth. Just like most men want to marry someone younger (if they can).
Most men marry women roughly the same age. What they want vs. What they actually do are two different things.
But more and more women - particularly well educated ones - are foregoing marriage if they can’t find a suitable man of equal social stature/wealth.
Anonymous
03/05/2023 20:22
Subject: Gender Tropes, Reluctant Truths
Anonymous wrote:Men’s rights activists aren’t violent or thugs, they’re just men who noticed some of the evident societal and systemic biases against men and spoke up against them. For which they were smeared of course
The median amount is only $4250 per year or $354 per month