Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Can I ask you a logistical question? How does someone with a full-time job keep their house clean, get their kids to school/activities and all the other places kids need to be (with all the stuff they need with them for those activities)?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand how this works. My kids are still young and I am trying to figure out how to make this work as they age into school and the best we've come up with is "hire housecleaners and a nanny to drive them to things and stay on top of laundry/food/etc." And as I'm pricing that out and looking at our salaries.... I am confused as to how other families make this work. I don't want to quit my job to clean the house and chauffeur the kids but I also just do not understand how this works logistically if you really do have two full time jobs, especially if they are both in person jobs and not the kind with flexible hours.

House cleaner biweekly for the grime. 15-20'min of cleaning/pickup/laundry folding by dh and me post bedtime. Staggered work hours for driving to activities. Fewer activities anyway. Quick shopping trips with lists etc. I make enough (200k) and have enough flexibility midday for an errand or a grocery shop in the am or meet a repair person at home. Dh goes to work at 6/7 am and is back by 4 for afternoon bus pickup. Flexible hours and seniority is key if both jobs are in person. Much harder for those without that. For chores, we try to have less stuff and be really efficient. If dh wants to watch a movie, he will fold/iron laundry while watching it post kids bedtime b

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Can I ask you a logistical question? How does someone with a full-time job keep their house clean, get their kids to school/activities and all the other places kids need to be (with all the stuff they need with them for those activities)?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand how this works. My kids are still young and I am trying to figure out how to make this work as they age into school and the best we've come up with is "hire housecleaners and a nanny to drive them to things and stay on top of laundry/food/etc." And as I'm pricing that out and looking at our salaries.... I am confused as to how other families make this work. I don't want to quit my job to clean the house and chauffeur the kids but I also just do not understand how this works logistically if you really do have two full time jobs, especially if they are both in person jobs and not the kind with flexible hours.

I'm busy all day both before and after work, our house isn't as clean as I would like, we don't eat as healthily as I would like, I'm exhausted and I don't think I can keep up full time work for much longer. That's reality for me. My work is pretty flexible but I just can't do everything, and my spouse works full-time in an office. My kids are in elementary and middle school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Can I ask you a logistical question? How does someone with a full-time job keep their house clean, get their kids to school/activities and all the other places kids need to be (with all the stuff they need with them for those activities)?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand how this works. My kids are still young and I am trying to figure out how to make this work as they age into school and the best we've come up with is "hire housecleaners and a nanny to drive them to things and stay on top of laundry/food/etc." And as I'm pricing that out and looking at our salaries.... I am confused as to how other families make this work. I don't want to quit my job to clean the house and chauffeur the kids but I also just do not understand how this works logistically if you really do have two full time jobs, especially if they are both in person jobs and not the kind with flexible hours.

Most working couples I know are fortunately able to stagger their work hours, so that one provides more coverage in the morning and the other after school. Or one spouse has a more flexible schedule, as I do. When my kids have activities, my DH takes when they are after 6:30 and I handle any that are earlier and make up the work time after dinner. We outsource most yard work, have groceries delivered, have a cleaning service twice a month, and resort to takeout or incredibly easy dinners during especially busy weeks. Working couples without any scheduling flexibility will often hire an au pair or PT babysitter who drives to handle afternoon activities. But in our case it does mean weekends are not that fun, since we inevitably have cleaning/organizing/errands/activities to manage. And are just plain tired!

Hmmm... so it seems you outsource a lot of work, get take outs, have cleaning service, have paid childcare and work very hard during the weekends as a working parent. Also, one spouse has a more flexible schedule. So, you are earning money but have less time and so you are buying other people's time to do that work for you. This buying time from other people (maybe other WOHMs) allows you to prioritize working to make more money to meet your financial goals. Fair enough.

I am not working and so I have lot more time. I also have more money so I can buy the time of other people (usually poor WOHMs) to outsource chores that is not a great use of my time. It gives me more time to be with my kids and so our childcare if not outsourced at all. We also meet our financial goals and my entire family has a lot of leisure time during the weekends, so we are not tired. It helps us to pay more attention to each other, our kids, their education, our family obligation and our social life. I think that is fair too.

Yes. I hate being a working mom and feel very trapped in the matter. It hurts to hear about the SAHMs in my neighborhood always being there at lunch or events. I see them walking the dogs in the middle of the day chatting or heading to the neighborhood pool in the summer with the kids while I'm stuck on a call and my kids are complaining about camp. I'm not on social media anymore and it's one of the reasons why. One of my kids has SNs too and I feel like I'm failing them pretty much all of the time.

I think the fact that you were a SAHM for a bit and couldn't take it (no judgement there, I couldn't either!), makes your feelings a little problematic. Looking into jobs that might give you a little more work life balance could be a good solution. I was in a very intense job for years before having a kid and I couldn't imagine doing that now. I have a very relaxed job that has it's busy periods, but even the busy times are not as bad as a pretty normal day in my old job. I feel like I can be fully present for me kid when I am with him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Can I ask you a logistical question? How does someone with a full-time job keep their house clean, get their kids to school/activities and all the other places kids need to be (with all the stuff they need with them for those activities)?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand how this works. My kids are still young and I am trying to figure out how to make this work as they age into school and the best we've come up with is "hire housecleaners and a nanny to drive them to things and stay on top of laundry/food/etc." And as I'm pricing that out and looking at our salaries.... I am confused as to how other families make this work. I don't want to quit my job to clean the house and chauffeur the kids but I also just do not understand how this works logistically if you really do have two full time jobs, especially if they are both in person jobs and not the kind with flexible hours.

Most working couples I know are fortunately able to stagger their work hours, so that one provides more coverage in the morning and the other after school. Or one spouse has a more flexible schedule, as I do. When my kids have activities, my DH takes when they are after 6:30 and I handle any that are earlier and make up the work time after dinner. We outsource most yard work, have groceries delivered, have a cleaning service twice a month, and resort to takeout or incredibly easy dinners during especially busy weeks. Working couples without any scheduling flexibility will often hire an au pair or PT babysitter who drives to handle afternoon activities. But in our case it does mean weekends are not that fun, since we inevitably have cleaning/organizing/errands/activities to manage. And are just plain tired!

So... given all that:

Couldn't it be argued that a SAHP with school age kids who kept the house clean (eliminating the need for house cleaners), got the kids from school and to activities on time and with everything they needed (eliminating the need for staggered schedules that would require someone to go in very early, or hiring a sitter or au pair to do these things), prepped healthy meals (eliminating the need for meal services and frequent take out and improving the quality of meals overall) is not "riding on the coattails" of working people but is, in fact, working and providing value to their family and to society at large? And that if they sometimes attend a book club or a yoga class, this is just a normal thing for a person to do with their free time and not something to resent or ridicule? And that they are not posting to social media to justify their lives, which are self-justifying, but just because they want to share something on social media?

It just seems like if the way the average two-income family solves the problem of taking care of the house and getting kids to activities and feeding the family does so by spending money on outsourcing and convenience items, and rearranging their schedules, there must be inherent value in instead having one parent stay home. It's weird to argue a SAHP of school age kids is providing nothing of value to society but that a professional house cleaner or a babysitter who performs the same duties for a family with two working parents is. What if the babysitter goes to yoga class after finishing her shift ferrying your kids around town? Does that negate her value to society?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My feelings are that I am better than them so I don’t struggle with those feelings

You sound like an ass though, so maybe work on that

Op - this comment is not from me

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I started SAH when my kids all went to school to try to enjoy more time for myself, but then struggled with *self-criticism* around this. I actually went to therapy because I was stuck on lots of “why are you wasting your time here on earth”/“why are you squandering your talents and energy”/“well you just killed your career for good” type thoughts. And I can feel the judgment of others sometimes.

It’s a work in progress! You don’t have to apologize for your thoughts - we all have junk thoughts and judgments all the time. It’s only your actions that really matter.

Oh man, I would love to pick your brain/join a support group to discuss this stuff with you. I'm the PP who is working part time with school age kids and struggling with my feelings and yes, it's these kinds of existential thoughts that plague me. And the external judgment. Even when I can objectively identify my value, even when I talk it through with my spouse and we discuss my value and the purpose in what I'm doing, I still struggle. It is so hard.

Can I come too?? I'm a SAHM who has school age kids. I work every day not to feel humiliated and worthless about it, especially since I have been actively trying for 13 years--the entirety of my time as a SAHM--to stay in the workforce and have been unable to. It's so embarrassing and now people are telling me it's too late to have a career. I have a bad autoimmune disease, a special needs child (and another who isn't entirely neurotypical), and other circumstances that have led me to where I am, so I have every reason to go easy on myself. And yet I'm still get these thoughts and feelings. No fun.

I love the idea of "junk thoughts and judgments." It's an important reminder for all of us.

There are many reasons why someone does not work. Initially, I could not work due to visa status. Later on, DH and I wanted one parent to be at home with kids and HHI is enough to have a fairly decent lifestyle. We earn so that we can live. We do not live so that we can earn. That is our mindset.

The biggest benefit of working is earning money IMHO. If we need the money I will absolutely go back to work. No questions asked. I also have the flexibility to go and earn money as my kids are grown.

However, what I have right now is lots of time to have a relaxed life and also make life easier for every person in my family. I think on some level many working people who work to earn money are well aware of this. That is why they get triggered and that is the main reason of WOHM vs SAHM wars.

No WOHM will ever envy a SAHM with low HHI. The poverty-stricken SAHM whose kids will have to take out loans for college is an object of pity on DCUM. The ill-educated SAHM who is stuck in LMC life is just a pathetic doormat. The envy/anger/derision is reserved for well-off and well educated SAHMs.

Also, wealthy WOHMs who can outsource a lot of chores and contribute to their family success in other areas just don't GAF about other people's life choices. It is usually LMC or MC WOHMs who get triggered about UMC or wealthy well-educated SAHMs and their "cushy" life. While, on the surface, it seems that we are only comparing WOHM vs SAHM in terms of employment and every other factor is the same, in reality, it will always be apples to oranges comparison. There are tons of reasons why people work, tons of reasons why people stay at home.

I get debilitating migraines once or twice a week and have been working with a neurologist to try to address but I just do not feel I can go back to work full time until I can figure it out. It sucks. I'm bored at home, plus often in pain and dealing with nausea and other side effects. Sometimes even just getting my kids to school or picking them up is a huge challenge.

Sometimes, to cheer myself up, I'll post a photo of my kids or some art project we did or a picture from a recent vacation or outing to social media. Or just a comment about something cute one of them said or some anecdote about parenting. It helps me to focus on the good part of my life right now and I also appreciate getting likes and comments from people because I am SO LONELY and have no one to talk to because all my friends are working (even the ones who used to SAHM with me before our kids were in school). Sometimes I call my DH but of course he is working and I can't dominate his time.

My life is not awful -- I am safe and we are okay financially (though will be much better when I can return to work), my kids are happy and healthy, and I have every reason to believe that I will solve my health issues and this will be just a transitional period I look back on with mixed feelings one day. But my life is also not easy nor is it even what I want it to be at the moment. Yesterday I interviewed for a part-time remote job with flexible hours that I think I could do even with the migraines, since it's only 10-15 hours a week. I hope I get it and it resolves some of my boredom and loneliness.

Anyway, if my social media posts are triggering you, I guess I am sorry but I am posting them for me. They don't really have anything to do with you. I hope you find something that helps you to feel more happy in your own life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

That’s just ridiculous. There are many ways to contribute to society. When I stayed at home, I volunteered a great deal. I do think this kind of rigid thinking and judgment is rooted in something else. I don’t think PP is merely a jerk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Can I ask you a logistical question? How does someone with a full-time job keep their house clean, get their kids to school/activities and all the other places kids need to be (with all the stuff they need with them for those activities)?

I'm not being snarky, I don't understand how this works. My kids are still young and I am trying to figure out how to make this work as they age into school and the best we've come up with is "hire housecleaners and a nanny to drive them to things and stay on top of laundry/food/etc." And as I'm pricing that out and looking at our salaries.... I am confused as to how other families make this work. I don't want to quit my job to clean the house and chauffeur the kids but I also just do not understand how this works logistically if you really do have two full time jobs, especially if they are both in person jobs and not the kind with flexible hours.

Most working couples I know are fortunately able to stagger their work hours, so that one provides more coverage in the morning and the other after school. Or one spouse has a more flexible schedule, as I do. When my kids have activities, my DH takes when they are after 6:30 and I handle any that are earlier and make up the work time after dinner. We outsource most yard work, have groceries delivered, have a cleaning service twice a month, and resort to takeout or incredibly easy dinners during especially busy weeks. Working couples without any scheduling flexibility will often hire an au pair or PT babysitter who drives to handle afternoon activities. But in our case it does mean weekends are not that fun, since we inevitably have cleaning/organizing/errands/activities to manage. And are just plain tired!

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Okay loser, no one cares about your judgment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have these sort of involuntary mental reactions to - for example - social media posts from friends whose kids are in school full time but they don’t have a job/ anything they do - and they’re just doing nothing. I work crazy bananas hard and always have - and make a pretty decent salary. At one point I stopped working when the kids were little - but got pretty depressed and went back. Am I just jealous of them? I don’t want to be judgmental so why does my brain do this? I’m sure it is hiding a deeper feeling and my therapist has said I need to figure out what is triggering me

I don't struggle with my feelings. I'm very comfortable judging them.

Our society functions because people work. Those who choose not to work are riding on the coattails of those who do. Most/all of them have value to add to society, yet they decline to do so. That's selfish.

There's a lot of grey space in this perception. Some SAHM/Ds are contributing through the legitimate care of their young or SN kids while others are somehow okay justifying their days of yoga and book clubs by pointing to their clean house and transportation of middle-schoolers to soccer practice - things the rest of us do on top of full time employment. Some wealthy unemployed dedicate their lives to worthy causes, while others post on IG for clout.

I don't think this is a matter for therapy. It's okay to judge poor behavior. And enjoying the benefits of our society/culture/country while failing to contribute is exactly that.

Judge away but you have no idea why people make the choices they do. Maybe one spouse works tons of hours with no flexibility and the family prefers one person to stay home. Maybe some people judge those who outsource everything and act like it’s the same as staying home. There are people who think that’s poor behavior, too. Maybe some people actually like a lower key lifestyle and accept the financial hits that come from that. Maybe some people have family issues/illnesses that you know nothing about. Lots of times those are the ones who do the most outward posting. Bottom line is different things work for different people.

Why do you care what others do when it doesn’t affect you? You need to examine that. I don’t work outside of the house. My spouse makes more than enough for our family and if I worked, over 1/2 of my salary would go to taxes and the rest would go to outsourcing. WE’D rather a parent is home to meet the kids after school and drive them to activities. House is always clean and stocked, no errands to run on the weekends, and we don’t have to outsource cleaning, dog walking, instacart, childcare etc. it’s a win win for everyone except the government and service providers we’d pay.