More educated, enlightened and resourceful people are, lower is number of their children.

Parenting is a profession where people get hired without education, training and eligibility exams and you've to learn on the job and have to earn living from a second job. It ain't easy but then again, you decided to have kids, kids had no say in being born, having you as parents or you not having what it takes to be a good parent.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do add lots of love and value to lives of parents but they do drain good parents, physically, emotionally and financially.

Without expenses of children, most upper middle class parents would be rich, middle class would be upper middle class and poor would be comfortable enough.

Having kids is a choice and it is well known that raising children takes time and money. Parents can’t claim to be surprised by any of it.

You expecting parents to pour 150% of their time and money into their kids, and do it perfectly without ever making an emotional or other misstep, is completely unrealistic. Nobody would have kids.

I was pointing out that parents—particularly UMC parents—have resources to help them understand what parenting entails. The PP was complaining that kids cost them money. Poor decisions by parents are not the child’s fault.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you think this is a real dynamic?

Young adults (18-23) with a sense of being wronged. They’re exhausted parents who did everything they could.

Lots of resentment bubbling over.

I think so. If their parents didn't want to procreate, young people wouldn't have a single problem to begin with. You bring other humans into this world without their consents, pass your subpar genes, do flawed parenting with your limited emotional and financial resources in a messed up world, the least you can do is to apologize. I'm only half kidding here, even the best of parents are literally the source of half of the problems kids face.

Wow. Speechless.

Well kids cause a lot of expense and trouble for the unsuspecting parents too. It evens the score.

I'm honestly saying this all with a light heart (I'm not either of those PPs), but he response to this is why would the parent be unsuspecting? Shouldn't we know what we are getting into when we bring a child into the world?

No. You are told it’s really hard and you see that it’s really hard, but you don’t *really* get it until it’s too late! And Mother Nature sets it up so you decide to have another one right when your first is getting easier but still really cute and importantly, small enough to control easily. You don't get how the teen years will go until it’s too late and you have more than one! Such a bait and switch! If they started as teens, 75% would be only children.

This is a discussion thread, not an advice thread.

Anonymous wrote:Some of the complaints I see on DCUM are so crazy; it does seem like people expect perfect childhoods. I always just hope this isn’t real life, because otherwise we are all doomed for our kids to think of us as being terrible parents despite pouring pretty much everything into it.

When you are looking whether or not somebody made a mistake or how good they were at something, how hard they tried doesn't need to be part of the conversation. My mom absolutely poured everything she had into us, and she was still a very bad parent. I love her and appreciate her, but her parenting gave me a life-long struggles. When you look at the impact of mistakes on children, your efforts are sort of irrelevant.

I think it's important to be gentle with *yourself* and not beat yourself up about mistakes. That doesn't do anybody any good. But doing your best doesn't mean the mistakes didn't happen. That can be a painful fact but once you acknowledge it you can just move forward and probably have a better relationship with your child. Yes, some adult children will never be satisfied and never take responsibility for their own lives, but there are so many people who say "just a simple apology would go a long way."

Anonymous wrote:I think societal influences are changing, we were conditioned to always be grateful to our parents and we genuinely did think they did what they could.

In addition to lots of societal influences, the parenting role has changed so much that people can think there is something wrong with their parents because their parents did not meet current expectations. The amount of involvement and engagement and safety concerns and parental help that is provided is so much more than 30, 40, 50 years ago (for better and for worse).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do add lots of love and value to lives of parents but they do drain good parents, physically, emotionally and financially.

Without expenses of children, most upper middle class parents would be rich, middle class would be upper middle class and poor would be comfortable enough.

Having kids is a choice and it is well known that raising children takes time and money. Parents can’t claim to be surprised by any of it.

You expecting parents to pour 150% of their time and money into their kids, and do it perfectly without ever making an emotional or other misstep, is completely unrealistic. Nobody would have kids.

I think you, and maybe others, are refuting assertions that nobody made.

Nobody said children should expect perfection. Nobody said that having kids isn't financially and emotionally draining.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't most of us have a sense of being wronged? I don't think that's new.

I accept the general screw ups - we're all human - but the very bad behavior - affairs for example - it would be nice to at least get an acknowledgement that their choices had impacts on people besides themselves.

Np, I am 45, and don't feel at all wronged by my parents. They were terrific people, and I am grateful that I had them. Perfect? Nope.

Perhaps you had good parents and the PP didn't.

This website is full of people comparing and judging other people's parenting. But then whenever someone says "my parents were bad parents" posters jump all over them to be more grateful. Well guess what? Some of us had really terrible parents whose parenting you would judge very harshly.

Nope. When an OP gives actual details that are objectively horrible, nobody jumps on them. When someone comes on to whine about something that makes their parents sound maybe 80% instead of 95% (thinking about the recent poster who was incensed her parents wanted to change the sheets after her visit), or if they give no details so the assumption is that it's something petty, then yes, yes, they deservedly get jumped on.

So you agree with PP. Even if they have bad parents, if they don't give a detailed explanation to justify their assessment, they deserve to get jumped on.

But then another thing happens: if you go into detail about why your parents were bad parents, you almost always get accused of being a drama llama and people still say you should be grateful, that you need to take accountability for your own life, etc. I think the only time there was a consensus that what my mom did was bad was when I said that I didn't think it was all that bad.

Maybe people on this website just like to disagree. Yeah, that's probably it.

Some of the complaints I see on DCUM are so crazy; it does seem like people expect perfect childhoods. I always just hope this isn’t real life, because otherwise we are all doomed for our kids to think of us as being terrible parents despite pouring pretty much everything into it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't most of us have a sense of being wronged? I don't think that's new.

I accept the general screw ups - we're all human - but the very bad behavior - affairs for example - it would be nice to at least get an acknowledgement that their choices had impacts on people besides themselves.

Np, I am 45, and don't feel at all wronged by my parents. They were terrific people, and I am grateful that I had them. Perfect? Nope.

Perhaps you had good parents and the PP didn't.

This website is full of people comparing and judging other people's parenting. But then whenever someone says "my parents were bad parents" posters jump all over them to be more grateful. Well guess what? Some of us had really terrible parents whose parenting you would judge very harshly.

Nope. When an OP gives actual details that are objectively horrible, nobody jumps on them. When someone comes on to whine about something that makes their parents sound maybe 80% instead of 95% (thinking about the recent poster who was incensed her parents wanted to change the sheets after her visit), or if they give no details so the assumption is that it's something petty, then yes, yes, they deservedly get jumped on.

I have seen posters talk about emotional abuse or neglect on this site and be told "it's not that bad" simply because their parents didn't hit them. I've even seen plenty of comments regarding spanking in which people defend parents who hit their kids. There are plenty of people here who think that parents are justified in almost anything they do because "nobody is perfect" and "parenting is hard". I didn't see the post about the sheets but that's obviously ridiculous. Was that poster alleging that her parents were abusive or that she wasn't grateful for anything they did though? Or was she just annoyed about some petty grievance and using DCUM to complain, something that happens all the time?

Anonymous wrote:My mom who emotionally abused and neglected us: "I tried my best, but I know I was a bad mom and I'm sorry for that."

My dad who was generally a good parent: "I did my best, but I know I was too controlling. I should have let you guys be yourselves instead of forcing you to do what I wanted to do. I"m sorry for that."

Me to both parents: "I'm so grateful for everything you did for me."

I dunno, my family is pretty dysfunctional but this part isn't hard.

This is a picture of healthy accountability that enables you to be grateful. The thing is, it is hard for many people. A lot of parents who are abusive or neglectful can never admit it, and continue these behaviors into their kid's adulthood, and any effort to even address or discuss dysfunction gets met with more abuse. In that situation, it's just not really possible, or healthy, for the adult child to say "I'm grateful for all that you did."

The parent-child dynamic has a very big power bias in favor of the parent, who is in charge for the first and formative years of the relationship. If that person never finds the emotional maturity to simply hold themselves accountable for anything, I don't think he child has any obligation to express gratitude, frankly. In that situation, I think the child's first objective should be to find a safe escape from the abusive dynamic and to learn self-love and self-acceptance. They don't owe a parent like that anything, much less a thank you.

But I'm glad your parents are capable of accountability and I'm glad you can express your gratitude toward them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do add lots of love and value to lives of parents but they do drain good parents, physically, emotionally and financially.

Without expenses of children, most upper middle class parents would be rich, middle class would be upper middle class and poor would be comfortable enough.

Having kids is a choice and it is well known that raising children takes time and money. Parents can’t claim to be surprised by any of it.

You expecting parents to pour 150% of their time and money into their kids, and do it perfectly without ever making an emotional or other misstep, is completely unrealistic. Nobody would have kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Don't most of us have a sense of being wronged? I don't think that's new.

I accept the general screw ups - we're all human - but the very bad behavior - affairs for example - it would be nice to at least get an acknowledgement that their choices had impacts on people besides themselves.

Np, I am 45, and don't feel at all wronged by my parents. They were terrific people, and I am grateful that I had them. Perfect? Nope.

Perhaps you had good parents and the PP didn't.

This website is full of people comparing and judging other people's parenting. But then whenever someone says "my parents were bad parents" posters jump all over them to be more grateful. Well guess what? Some of us had really terrible parents whose parenting you would judge very harshly.

Nope. When an OP gives actual details that are objectively horrible, nobody jumps on them. When someone comes on to whine about something that makes their parents sound maybe 80% instead of 95% (thinking about the recent poster who was incensed her parents wanted to change the sheets after her visit), or if they give no details so the assumption is that it's something petty, then yes, yes, they deservedly get jumped on.

Anonymous wrote:Kids do add lots of love and value to lives of parents but they do drain good parents, physically, emotionally and financially.

Without expenses of children, most upper middle class parents would be rich, middle class would be upper middle class and poor would be comfortable enough.

Having kids is a choice and it is well known that raising children takes time and money. Parents can’t claim to be surprised by any of it.