Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:18
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Did you read the post I am responding to? Did you see how many times she talks about "fun?" Do you want to be an engaged grandparent to the age your grandkids actually are? Or are you just looking for fun? Because schlepping little kids to their grandparents' house is not fun for the adult children.
Again, thank goodness my parents and in-laws were a great help with kids that age.
The PP is acknowledging it's not fun to be around little kids all day or expect others to entertain them. Are you the one responding that you wouldn't visit people who think that little kids are sometimes a drag? Because if you are I think that's ridiculous. They are your kids and your job no matter whose house you're in. You don't get to put your feet up and relax and foist toddlers on grandparents all who may not be up to the job. My kids aren't that old, I have 3 of them, the youngest is 7. I know exactly what all this is like. But at the end of the day, my kids, my problem.
No, I wouldn't visit people with my children who thought my children are a drag.
Also the "putting your feet" "reading novels" and whatever else has been thrown around seems to be red herring because OP has said no one has assisted with the kids and the kids are supposed to play alone in another room. So, no, I would not visit someone like that when I had small kids.
So you’ll let your unrealistic expectations ruin your relationships with your parents or ILs. Got it.
(And for the record, why would op want free babysitting if not to put her feet up? You make no sense.)
Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:18
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Did you read the post I am responding to? Did you see how many times she talks about "fun?" Do you want to be an engaged grandparent to the age your grandkids actually are? Or are you just looking for fun? Because schlepping little kids to their grandparents' house is not fun for the adult children.
Again, thank goodness my parents and in-laws were a great help with kids that age.
+1. So were mine.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:17
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Did you read the post I am responding to? Did you see how many times she talks about "fun?" Do you want to be an engaged grandparent to the age your grandkids actually are? Or are you just looking for fun? Because schlepping little kids to their grandparents' house is not fun for the adult children.
Again, thank goodness my parents and in-laws were a great help with kids that age.
The PP is acknowledging it's not fun to be around little kids all day or expect others to entertain them. Are you the one responding that you wouldn't visit people who think that little kids are sometimes a drag? Because if you are I think that's ridiculous. They are your kids and your job no matter whose house you're in. You don't get to put your feet up and relax and foist toddlers on grandparents all who may not be up to the job. My kids aren't that old, I have 3 of them, the youngest is 7. I know exactly what all this is like. But at the end of the day, my kids, my problem.
No, I wouldn't visit people with my children who thought my children are a drag.
DP. “drag” was probably not the right word for pp’s point. Try “hard.” It’s mentally and physically exhausting. I too have kids. PP’s main point is correct, though, whatever wording you use: you don’t get to foist your responsibilities onto someone else, not even with a guilt trip about what grandparents “should” do.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:14
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Did you read the post I am responding to? Did you see how many times she talks about "fun?" Do you want to be an engaged grandparent to the age your grandkids actually are? Or are you just looking for fun? Because schlepping little kids to their grandparents' house is not fun for the adult children.
Again, thank goodness my parents and in-laws were a great help with kids that age.
The PP is acknowledging it's not fun to be around little kids all day or expect others to entertain them. Are you the one responding that you wouldn't visit people who think that little kids are sometimes a drag? Because if you are I think that's ridiculous. They are your kids and your job no matter whose house you're in. You don't get to put your feet up and relax and foist toddlers on grandparents all who may not be up to the job. My kids aren't that old, I have 3 of them, the youngest is 7. I know exactly what all this is like. But at the end of the day, my kids, my problem.
No, I wouldn't visit people with my children who thought my children are a drag.
Also the "putting your feet" "reading novels" and whatever else has been thrown around seems to be red herring because OP has said no one has assisted with the kids and the kids are supposed to play alone in another room. So, no, I would not visit someone like that when I had small kids.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:11
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Did you read the post I am responding to? Did you see how many times she talks about "fun?" Do you want to be an engaged grandparent to the age your grandkids actually are? Or are you just looking for fun? Because schlepping little kids to their grandparents' house is not fun for the adult children.
Again, thank goodness my parents and in-laws were a great help with kids that age.
The PP is acknowledging it's not fun to be around little kids all day or expect others to entertain them. Are you the one responding that you wouldn't visit people who think that little kids are sometimes a drag? Because if you are I think that's ridiculous. They are your kids and your job no matter whose house you're in. You don't get to put your feet up and relax and foist toddlers on grandparents all who may not be up to the job. My kids aren't that old, I have 3 of them, the youngest is 7. I know exactly what all this is like. But at the end of the day, my kids, my problem.
+1
Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:09
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Did you read the post I am responding to? Did you see how many times she talks about "fun?" Do you want to be an engaged grandparent to the age your grandkids actually are? Or are you just looking for fun? Because schlepping little kids to their grandparents' house is not fun for the adult children.
Again, thank goodness my parents and in-laws were a great help with kids that age.
The PP is acknowledging it's not fun to be around little kids all day or expect others to entertain them. Are you the one responding that you wouldn't visit people who think that little kids are sometimes a drag? Because if you are I think that's ridiculous. They are your kids and your job no matter whose house you're in. You don't get to put your feet up and relax and foist toddlers on grandparents all who may not be up to the job. My kids aren't that old, I have 3 of them, the youngest is 7. I know exactly what all this is like. But at the end of the day, my kids, my problem.
No, I wouldn't visit people with my children who thought my children are a drag.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:08
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Young parents have this notion that everybody owes them the world, especially grandparents, simply because they provided grandchildren. We might have been that way, but we quickly got over it. Now we role her eyes at SIL who still has this notion. Elderly people can’t provide hotel accommodations plus free babysitting.
Washing the dishes (20 mins to load the dishwasher and scrub a few pans?) and stripping the bed (5 mins?) aren’t unreasonable, especially if OP and DH share the jobs.
That’s fine as long as grandparents don’t ask for a visit. Ever. I mean what are they thinking even dreaming of asking for a visit when they can’t host kids?
Because you’re the parents and your job is to take care of your own kids. The entitlement here is stunning.
DP. Your hostility toward parents with young kids is stunning.
Really, when you have toddlers it's just hard to travel to someone's house. If it were a hotel at least you don't have to cook and clean. But at ILs' place you cannot relax for one moment, and it's not your home environment so entertaining the kids is more complicated and harder.
What parents of young kids willingly schlep everything and travel to their ILs during the crazy holiday season? They go b/c the grandparents expect it. Then the grandparents do not lift a finger to help with kids, and wonder why the parents want to visit less.
So much for taking a village.
We HAD young kids. We schlepped them to both sets of grandparents every major holiday. We went to be with the grandparents, not because they “expected” it. The grandparents always provided meals and cleaned up, much like OP’s parents apparently do. We never expected anybody else to watch our small kids while we sat around reading novels and drinking wine.
Glad you enjoyed that but to me it sounds miserable. I definitely wouldn't expect my children to do that when they have young kids.
Come back and post in 30 years when your kid and spouse demand you babysit their spoilt, unruly kids.
You sound like a peach. Even more reason not to demand visits with "spoilt, unruly kids" running around, right?
Just that we don’t know if OP’s kids are easy or hard. Kids who are the center of attention 100% of the time do tend to be self-centered and spoilt, though.
Even toddlers can and should entertain themselves for the 20 mins it takes for grandpa to call the office. As long as Larlo is putting the wooden train track pieces together under grandpa’s eye while he’s on the phone, that to me is a GOOD outcome, including good for Larlo.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:07
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Did you read the post I am responding to? Did you see how many times she talks about "fun?" Do you want to be an engaged grandparent to the age your grandkids actually are? Or are you just looking for fun? Because schlepping little kids to their grandparents' house is not fun for the adult children.
Again, thank goodness my parents and in-laws were a great help with kids that age.
The PP is acknowledging it's not fun to be around little kids all day or expect others to entertain them. Are you the one responding that you wouldn't visit people who think that little kids are sometimes a drag? Because if you are I think that's ridiculous. They are your kids and your job no matter whose house you're in. You don't get to put your feet up and relax and foist toddlers on grandparents all who may not be up to the job. My kids aren't that old, I have 3 of them, the youngest is 7. I know exactly what all this is like. But at the end of the day, my kids, my problem.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 14:01
Subject: Re:Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m a MIL to my son and DIL who just had a baby.
This recently happened, in reverse. Of course when my kids or grandkids visit everything is done. That’s what mothers do. It is pure joy.
But….now that one of my kids (my son) has a child, well, you know, things change. I went to visit them (they’re not local) and ADORED loving on my beautiful new granddaughter. I neglected to see they were exhausted and overwhelmed. I did not pay attention to dishes in the sink, loads to be folded and don’t think I changed one diaper. My heart was bursting with love and pride for this beautiful family.
So my son (new Dad) took me aside and talked to me. That’s what adults do. He told me, “ya know Mah, we could use some help”. Mind you I had offered to help so they could go out and help in ways that I saw would be helpful. He did tell me I was annoying LOL. This happens to work in our family culture.
My point…..have your husband take care of it. Be honest. Use language that works with his family culture. I don’t think I am unusual when I say….I was proud of my son. He was watching out for his family. If his parents can’t suspend their ego….have him ask them to suspend their ego and work with him.
Will you please be my MIL? They will continue to visit with you because you are able to listen without being offended.
+1000
Anonymous
12/19/2022 13:58
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Did you read the post I am responding to? Did you see how many times she talks about "fun?" Do you want to be an engaged grandparent to the age your grandkids actually are? Or are you just looking for fun? Because schlepping little kids to their grandparents' house is not fun for the adult children.
Again, thank goodness my parents and in-laws were a great help with kids that age.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 13:58
Subject: Re:Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:I’m a MIL to my son and DIL who just had a baby.
This recently happened, in reverse. Of course when my kids or grandkids visit everything is done. That’s what mothers do. It is pure joy.
But….now that one of my kids (my son) has a child, well, you know, things change. I went to visit them (they’re not local) and ADORED loving on my beautiful new granddaughter. I neglected to see they were exhausted and overwhelmed. I did not pay attention to dishes in the sink, loads to be folded and don’t think I changed one diaper. My heart was bursting with love and pride for this beautiful family.
So my son (new Dad) took me aside and talked to me. That’s what adults do. He told me, “ya know Mah, we could use some help”. Mind you I had offered to help so they could go out and help in ways that I saw would be helpful. He did tell me I was annoying LOL. This happens to work in our family culture.
My point…..have your husband take care of it. Be honest. Use language that works with his family culture. I don’t think I am unusual when I say….I was proud of my son. He was watching out for his family. If his parents can’t suspend their ego….have him ask them to suspend their ego and work with him.
Will you please be my MIL? They will continue to visit with you because you are able to listen without being offended.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 13:57
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Tell your DH is on dish duty. He should just be doing ALL the dishes in the kitchen 3 times a day.
If he doesn't like it, well you can stop going there to visit so much.
If he doesn't like it, well you can stop going there to visit so much.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 13:56
Subject: Re:Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Raising kids is so very hard. And managing kids in someone else’s house is extra hard. New routines & distractions.
I always try to help parents. They have so much to do! From babies to teens.
OP, if you were visiting me, I’d acknowledge your travel, your need for a break, and make things as easy as possible for you so we could all enjoy time together. Over and over the mentality is every man for himself.
I always try to help parents. They have so much to do! From babies to teens.
OP, if you were visiting me, I’d acknowledge your travel, your need for a break, and make things as easy as possible for you so we could all enjoy time together. Over and over the mentality is every man for himself.
Anonymous
12/19/2022 13:55
Subject: Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here.
This actually isn’t as strictly gendered as some suggest, and FYI my MIL is super successful in her field and made about ten times more money than FIL, who did most of the childcare when DH was a kid and continues to be the main person who grocery shops and cleans.
But I think EVERYONE should contribute and be helpful. I’m the same way when we have guests with kids, and honestly it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see often. But if they don’t want to interact much with our kids, at least they could do other host things to help us out.
I will NEVER be like them when my kids are grown and come visit. It’s no wonder we don’t visit ILs very often.
The fact that you think it’s fun to occupy kids you don’t see that often is where the disconnect is. I love my kids but I can fully acknowledge that when they were under 5 entertaining them for more than about 20 minutes was not that fun for other people, and was no one’s responsibility but mine and DHs. And I only had 2 of them not 3. It’s not reasonable to expect other people to entertain your 3 very young children for long stretches.
If my parents or inlaws had this attitude about their grandchildren, we would have seen them a whole lot less.
What in the world? They are your kids, you decided to have them, ultimate responsibility lies with you. Why did you have kids? Were they to be a git to your parents and in-laws?
Anonymous
12/19/2022 13:54
Subject: Re:Annoyed that ILs are unhelpful to us when we visit them, but expect us to do a ton as “good guests”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Not sure why so many are commenting about "elderly people" unless I missed something- Not OP but my ILs are in their 50s and can't be bothered.
Even if they were 65, if they aren't in decent enough shape to read a book with a kid I don't think they should be hosting multiple young kids.
I don't mean to be harsh at all, but I think they're just not that into kids. That's the only thing I can think of.
That's definitely the case with my ILs. Which is totally fine! What's not great is to pretend like there's this close, supportive relationship just for appearances/bragging rights with their friends...get your pictures for Facebook and let's move on.