Anonymous wrote:I have a first grader doing some test (not cogat) tomorrow and a second grader doing cogat. Were we supposed to prepare? Or are ppl talking about older kids? I had no idea what these tests are for. We are in Arlington.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I fear the gifted designation is going to be highly sought after given the lower stds being pushed in gen Ed at APS.

What schools actually have higher standards for the gifted Kids in APS? Our elementary school has gifted enrichment activities but curriculum and standards are the same. I don't think the school board cares if rich kids go private but there aren't enough privates in NoVA to absorb the kids!

The actual standards are the same, but in our school the cohort makes a difference. You’re guaranteed a group of peers above grade level and won’t get the dud teacher if there is one in the grade.

What school? That was not our experience at Key.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I fear the gifted designation is going to be highly sought after given the lower stds being pushed in gen Ed at APS.

What schools actually have higher standards for the gifted Kids in APS? Our elementary school has gifted enrichment activities but curriculum and standards are the same. I don't think the school board cares if rich kids go private but there aren't enough privates in NoVA to absorb the kids!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I fear the gifted designation is going to be highly sought after given the lower stds being pushed in gen Ed at APS.

What schools actually have higher standards for the gifted Kids in APS? Our elementary school has gifted enrichment activities but curriculum and standards are the same. I don't think the school board cares if rich kids go private but there aren't enough privates in NoVA to absorb the kids!

The actual standards are the same, but in our school the cohort makes a difference. You’re guaranteed a group of peers above grade level and won’t get the dud teacher if there is one in the grade.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I fear the gifted designation is going to be highly sought after given the lower stds being pushed in gen Ed at APS.

What schools actually have higher standards for the gifted Kids in APS? Our elementary school has gifted enrichment activities but curriculum and standards are the same. I don't think the school board cares if rich kids go private but there aren't enough privates in NoVA to absorb the kids!

Anonymous wrote:I fear the gifted designation is going to be highly sought after given the lower stds being pushed in gen Ed at APS.

Anonymous wrote:I fear the gifted designation is going to be highly sought after given the lower stds being pushed in gen Ed at APS.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are sample questions embedded into the testing sessions. Please don't buy practice books for your kids; the test is supposed to measure ability, not learned achievement.

So many people doing it, you are at a disadvantage if you don’t. It’s just the truth.

I am not disputing this but just one lone voice out in the world saying we did zero prep with either of our kids. My one kid did well but not a super high score. My other kid got a really high score. Based on what I know about them, the test did it's job and placed them where they should be and reflected their ability. It didn't cross my mind to do prep.

We knew our kids were probably borderline but wanted to nudge them over the edge. You can't prove the negative but they are now doing great and it was a minimal time/money investment from us. I don't see any harm.

The harm is that these tests than become about who has resources and knowledge to prep their kids for them and is why in more diverse schools, the white kids end up tagged gifted and the non-white kids less so. Look at any school or school systems stats. It's a known issue. It does do pretty large harm in the aggregate.

That's not my problem as a parent. My responsibility is to see that my kids get the best possible education, and that they are properly challenged. They can clearly do the work (because they are) so they should have access to it. The fact that other kids are being missed is the school's issue to deal with.

Yes, I am clear you feel that way. We all get it. I'm not saying I disagree with you or your decision. The point is, again, the system as it is set up is in fact causing harm. Call a spade a spade folks.

What is the harm, exactly? If prepping makes kids who are bright, but not gifted, qualify for gifted programs that doesn’t mean that the non-prepped kids who are actually gifted won’t also qualify. If the harm is that the bright non-gifted unprepped kids are left behind, that means the regular track should be fixed because it’s less than in some way.

The harm is it leads to de facto segregation in diverse schools. In many public schools it's a way for white kids to get out of classes with brown/black kids. That is why parents are obsessed with getting into these programs, particularly in jurisdictions like FCPS or ACPS where it's a pull out model by as early as 3rd/4th grade and kids are physically separated. When in fact a bunch of those white kids and brown/black kids are of the same intellectual capability. But guess who is left behind.

it doesn't work like that in Arlington. Gifted kids are in classes with everyone else.

Cogat scores are used in Arlington for 6th grade math placement and they do limited pull outs in APS. But not nearly to same degree as ACPS and FCPS.

it seemed like the OP was from Arlington but I could be wrong. Regardless, it is ridiculous to use a placement test that you don't expect kids to prep for. There is nothing wrong with studying for tests and we should not teach kids that it is wrong to study. If anything, they should send materials home so kids can prepare and change the test so it can't easily be gamed. in the meantime, do what is best for your kids.

You're acting like it's a knowledge based test. It's an ability test. Most schools discourage taking the practice tests because they know it's an unfair advantage.

No one is questioning anyone for doing what they feel they need to do for their own kid. That's what we do for them as parents. A lot of defensive reactions.

It's an unfair system, as is. That's it. Nothing personal.

The verbal and quantitative are absolutely knowledge based. Ex: “Which one of these is opaque” with 4 pictures. If you don’t know the word opaque you can’t answer the question. Also basic arithmetic is knowledge based.

NP. Okay, it's knowledge based, but not in the same sense as the SOL where you learn what is on the test and then are tested on what you learn. So it is unfair in the sense that kids who don't get outside help are going to do more poorly, and it's sort of ridiculous that schools use that to decide who gets special coursework and who doesn't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are sample questions embedded into the testing sessions. Please don't buy practice books for your kids; the test is supposed to measure ability, not learned achievement.

So many people doing it, you are at a disadvantage if you don’t. It’s just the truth.

I am not disputing this but just one lone voice out in the world saying we did zero prep with either of our kids. My one kid did well but not a super high score. My other kid got a really high score. Based on what I know about them, the test did it's job and placed them where they should be and reflected their ability. It didn't cross my mind to do prep.

We knew our kids were probably borderline but wanted to nudge them over the edge. You can't prove the negative but they are now doing great and it was a minimal time/money investment from us. I don't see any harm.

The harm is that these tests than become about who has resources and knowledge to prep their kids for them and is why in more diverse schools, the white kids end up tagged gifted and the non-white kids less so. Look at any school or school systems stats. It's a known issue. It does do pretty large harm in the aggregate.

That's not my problem as a parent. My responsibility is to see that my kids get the best possible education, and that they are properly challenged. They can clearly do the work (because they are) so they should have access to it. The fact that other kids are being missed is the school's issue to deal with.

Yes, I am clear you feel that way. We all get it. I'm not saying I disagree with you or your decision. The point is, again, the system as it is set up is in fact causing harm. Call a spade a spade folks.

What is the harm, exactly? If prepping makes kids who are bright, but not gifted, qualify for gifted programs that doesn’t mean that the non-prepped kids who are actually gifted won’t also qualify. If the harm is that the bright non-gifted unprepped kids are left behind, that means the regular track should be fixed because it’s less than in some way.

The harm is it leads to de facto segregation in diverse schools. In many public schools it's a way for white kids to get out of classes with brown/black kids. That is why parents are obsessed with getting into these programs, particularly in jurisdictions like FCPS or ACPS where it's a pull out model by as early as 3rd/4th grade and kids are physically separated. When in fact a bunch of those white kids and brown/black kids are of the same intellectual capability. But guess who is left behind.

it doesn't work like that in Arlington. Gifted kids are in classes with everyone else.

Cogat scores are used in Arlington for 6th grade math placement and they do limited pull outs in APS. But not nearly to same degree as ACPS and FCPS.

it seemed like the OP was from Arlington but I could be wrong. Regardless, it is ridiculous to use a placement test that you don't expect kids to prep for. There is nothing wrong with studying for tests and we should not teach kids that it is wrong to study. If anything, they should send materials home so kids can prepare and change the test so it can't easily be gamed. in the meantime, do what is best for your kids.

You're acting like it's a knowledge based test. It's an ability test. Most schools discourage taking the practice tests because they know it's an unfair advantage.

No one is questioning anyone for doing what they feel they need to do for their own kid. That's what we do for them as parents. A lot of defensive reactions.

It's an unfair system, as is. That's it. Nothing personal.

The verbal and quantitative are absolutely knowledge based. Ex: “Which one of these is opaque” with 4 pictures. If you don’t know the word opaque you can’t answer the question. Also basic arithmetic is knowledge based.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are sample questions embedded into the testing sessions. Please don't buy practice books for your kids; the test is supposed to measure ability, not learned achievement.

So many people doing it, you are at a disadvantage if you don’t. It’s just the truth.

I am not disputing this but just one lone voice out in the world saying we did zero prep with either of our kids. My one kid did well but not a super high score. My other kid got a really high score. Based on what I know about them, the test did it's job and placed them where they should be and reflected their ability. It didn't cross my mind to do prep.

We knew our kids were probably borderline but wanted to nudge them over the edge. You can't prove the negative but they are now doing great and it was a minimal time/money investment from us. I don't see any harm.

The harm is that these tests than become about who has resources and knowledge to prep their kids for them and is why in more diverse schools, the white kids end up tagged gifted and the non-white kids less so. Look at any school or school systems stats. It's a known issue. It does do pretty large harm in the aggregate.

If the test is that easy to prep kids for, then the schools should either switch tests or do some prep in school so everyone benefits from the prep. If the school isn't doing that then that is a systemic problem and you as a parent have to do what is best for your kid. Just like I give my kids extra math work for reinforcement since they don't get math homework. That also disadvantages lower-income kids whose parents don't have the resources to do this. And so while the school got rid of homework in the name of equity, likely doing that just made equity issues worse.

Except schools did not actually get rid of homework in the name of equity. There hasn't been homework in many elementary schools for years even before the current era of all equity all the time because giving homework to kids that age is not evidence-based. I do understand it makes Type A people feel better. Oh and there is still homework in middle school and high school.

My kids are in an APS middle school that does not have homework and has implied it is because of equity. It is a rough transition from no homework in 8th grade to lots of homework in high school for a lot of kids. I don't know where you are getting your info on homework in middle school but it is not consistent with my kids' experience. I agree that no homework in elementary makes sense. But for kids learning algebra and geometry in middle school, I think it is nuts.

Which school?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are sample questions embedded into the testing sessions. Please don't buy practice books for your kids; the test is supposed to measure ability, not learned achievement.

So many people doing it, you are at a disadvantage if you don’t. It’s just the truth.

I am not disputing this but just one lone voice out in the world saying we did zero prep with either of our kids. My one kid did well but not a super high score. My other kid got a really high score. Based on what I know about them, the test did it's job and placed them where they should be and reflected their ability. It didn't cross my mind to do prep.

We knew our kids were probably borderline but wanted to nudge them over the edge. You can't prove the negative but they are now doing great and it was a minimal time/money investment from us. I don't see any harm.

The harm is that these tests than become about who has resources and knowledge to prep their kids for them and is why in more diverse schools, the white kids end up tagged gifted and the non-white kids less so. Look at any school or school systems stats. It's a known issue. It does do pretty large harm in the aggregate.

That's not my problem as a parent. My responsibility is to see that my kids get the best possible education, and that they are properly challenged. They can clearly do the work (because they are) so they should have access to it. The fact that other kids are being missed is the school's issue to deal with.

Yes, I am clear you feel that way. We all get it. I'm not saying I disagree with you or your decision. The point is, again, the system as it is set up is in fact causing harm. Call a spade a spade folks.

What is the harm, exactly? If prepping makes kids who are bright, but not gifted, qualify for gifted programs that doesn’t mean that the non-prepped kids who are actually gifted won’t also qualify. If the harm is that the bright non-gifted unprepped kids are left behind, that means the regular track should be fixed because it’s less than in some way.

The harm is it leads to de facto segregation in diverse schools. In many public schools it's a way for white kids to get out of classes with brown/black kids. That is why parents are obsessed with getting into these programs, particularly in jurisdictions like FCPS or ACPS where it's a pull out model by as early as 3rd/4th grade and kids are physically separated. When in fact a bunch of those white kids and brown/black kids are of the same intellectual capability. But guess who is left behind.

it doesn't work like that in Arlington. Gifted kids are in classes with everyone else.

Cogat scores are used in Arlington for 6th grade math placement and they do limited pull outs in APS. But not nearly to same degree as ACPS and FCPS.

it seemed like the OP was from Arlington but I could be wrong. Regardless, it is ridiculous to use a placement test that you don't expect kids to prep for. There is nothing wrong with studying for tests and we should not teach kids that it is wrong to study. If anything, they should send materials home so kids can prepare and change the test so it can't easily be gamed. in the meantime, do what is best for your kids.

You're acting like it's a knowledge based test. It's an ability test. Most schools discourage taking the practice tests because they know it's an unfair advantage.

No one is questioning anyone for doing what they feel they need to do for their own kid. That's what we do for them as parents. A lot of defensive reactions.

It's an unfair system, as is. That's it. Nothing personal.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are sample questions embedded into the testing sessions. Please don't buy practice books for your kids; the test is supposed to measure ability, not learned achievement.

Nah, we bought a practice book. It tests math and reading, so I’m not sure how that’s a pure ability test vs acquired knowledge. Prepping isn’t going to bring a 100 up to 130. It might get a kid from 125 to 135 though.

Eh, my child has a 108 IQ and after going thru a book, he scored 132/126/130 I think. I think test prep can help an average kid substantially.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are sample questions embedded into the testing sessions. Please don't buy practice books for your kids; the test is supposed to measure ability, not learned achievement.

So many people doing it, you are at a disadvantage if you don’t. It’s just the truth.

I am not disputing this but just one lone voice out in the world saying we did zero prep with either of our kids. My one kid did well but not a super high score. My other kid got a really high score. Based on what I know about them, the test did it's job and placed them where they should be and reflected their ability. It didn't cross my mind to do prep.

We knew our kids were probably borderline but wanted to nudge them over the edge. You can't prove the negative but they are now doing great and it was a minimal time/money investment from us. I don't see any harm.

The harm is that these tests than become about who has resources and knowledge to prep their kids for them and is why in more diverse schools, the white kids end up tagged gifted and the non-white kids less so. Look at any school or school systems stats. It's a known issue. It does do pretty large harm in the aggregate.

If the test is that easy to prep kids for, then the schools should either switch tests or do some prep in school so everyone benefits from the prep. If the school isn't doing that then that is a systemic problem and you as a parent have to do what is best for your kid. Just like I give my kids extra math work for reinforcement since they don't get math homework. That also disadvantages lower-income kids whose parents don't have the resources to do this. And so while the school got rid of homework in the name of equity, likely doing that just made equity issues worse.

Except schools did not actually get rid of homework in the name of equity. There hasn't been homework in many elementary schools for years even before the current era of all equity all the time because giving homework to kids that age is not evidence-based. I do understand it makes Type A people feel better. Oh and there is still homework in middle school and high school.

My kids are in an APS middle school that does not have homework and has implied it is because of equity. It is a rough transition from no homework in 8th grade to lots of homework in high school for a lot of kids. I don't know where you are getting your info on homework in middle school but it is not consistent with my kids' experience. I agree that no homework in elementary makes sense. But for kids learning algebra and geometry in middle school, I think it is nuts.