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Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.

Fix it according to whom???

From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.

I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.

It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.

And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.

Signed, a writing professor

The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.

Writing centers, yes. Asking your lit prof to proofread your essay? No, wtf.

OP, are you going to control every aspect of her application? Decide now what control you need and set boundaries with her about what you’re going to insist on if you’re going to pay her app fees. I let my parents/sister proofread my essays… but then ignored some of their feedback. I’m sure my parents felt as you did; glad they didn’t make a huge fuss about it. I got in almost everywhere I applied, imperfect essays notwithstanding.

My DC definitely got feedback about essays before submission from professors. It was very beneficial and DC made significant progress with writing quality because of it. Wtf is wrong with getting instruction from professional educators like professors?

Do you not know what proofreading means? Constructive feedback, yes. A line edit or proofreading? No way.

My 15 yr old son writes brilliant essays. Perhaps your dd is the same.

the schools know what is edited by adults and what is written by students.

they know what a senior in high school writes like and would rather have a good essay with some typos etc that a professionally crafted essay that is not a reflection of the student.

Anonymous wrote:It's not unethical to have someone check over her essay, people!
That's what our college counselors do if asked at my kids' school.

The issue is really something great, that OP's DD wants to take ownership of it herself. And she's trying to get out of the mother-daughter dynamic.

The problem is she is too naive to know that *everyone* can use another set of eyes on this sort of thing. This is the lesson that should be conveyed.

So have her agree to show it to another adult, anyone besides OP.

Correct.

I haven't read all the responses, but please encourage her to find out whether there is something in place at her school, either through the guidance counselors or the English department.

You could also try a trusted friend or older sibling.

Anonymous wrote:She spent an afternoon on what I thought would be the first draft, but she said she’s done, refused to edit or take feedbacks for even slight changes to improve the flow. She has good stats and is applying to some selective schools, I feel it is a waste of the application fee by not taking the essay seriously.
It has been two weeks and she insists she doesn’t need help with her essay. What can I do?

Some kids are like that. They are overconfident with their writing skills. She will pay for that and you will pay her app fees.

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Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.

Fix it according to whom???

From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.

I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.

It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.

And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.

Signed, a writing professor

The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.

THIS. WTF to all the people saying profs won't proofread. I taught writing at the grad school level in a specific field of writing. I would absolutely proofread and any good prof will, too. That's is part of the writing process.

That is because you taught writing. Profs don't proofread papers.

They did for me and I almost majored in English, took many lit and "writing" courses. Apparently my Midwest, Big State U had better profs than what a lot of you had.

The class I used to teach involved a specific type of writing, synthesizing a lot of written material into a final product. I'm not sure why you feel the need to diminish that to prove some point.

Anonymous wrote:I have a background in journalism and am a strong writer and my DC never wants my feedback on anything to do with writing. I had DC work with test prep tutor to brainstorm essay idea and provide some editing feedback (but not make the edits). The essay ended up being 100% DC’s idea and words and was not what I would’ve written or how I would’ve written it but that’s the point. It showed DC’s authentic voice.

New poster. Are you me? This is what happened with us, too. I have a journalism background, and DC is a very strong writer, and I knew we'd clash if I read the essays, so the test prep tutor we'd used worked for us separately to talk with DC about essays and read over them. Just a few comments, not a big deal or even in-person sessions. If we hadn't done that, DC likely would have asked a family friend who is an MS teacher. I myself read essays by a friend's son to give him feedback because he didn't like his parents reading them.

OP, the issue is that students will respond much better to a third party than to their own parents. As the parent, you can, I think, insist that she get SOME other eyes on her essays. Parents do have a role in the overall process and shouldn't balk at saying, I get that you don't want me to read it and I won't, but someone besides you (DC) has to; what about counselor X, teacher Y, test prep person Z? (But I would not ever withhold application fees or do other punitive things like that, as some above are advocating in this thread. Wow, that seems aggressively punitive.)

But you, yourself, shouldn't try to read, proofread or substantively edit essays, as long as she's getting some kind of outside feedback. If you push to read essays, she will resist and neither the essays, nor your relationship with her, will benefit.

I am a grad school professor (in a health, not English-related field). No professor that I know of would proofread a student's assignment prior to them turning it in for grading.

The one possible exception is a thesis. That goes through many iterations. The advisor will point out places where it is unclear or does not meet the writing guidelines which are accepted in that field (e.g., for tone). Missing content, such as Study Limitations. You are teaching them how to write as a scientist, but you are not proofreading their assignment for them.

Anonymous wrote:She spent an afternoon on what I thought would be the first draft, but she said she’s done, refused to edit or take feedbacks for even slight changes to improve the flow. She has good stats and is applying to some selective schools, I feel it is a waste of the application fee by not taking the essay seriously.
It has been two weeks and she insists she doesn’t need help with her essay. What can I do?

OP: You are wrong.

Your daughter is mature enough to understand that college admissions wants to read her work product, in her voice, revealing her thoughts and other qualities about her.

Moreover, your daughter may be revealing information about herself that she prefers to remain unknown to her parents. Could be about sexual orientation,about an experience unknown to her parents,about her family life, or about anything that she wishes to remain private from immediate family members, friends, and teachers.

OP: If you want to proofread and edit her college essays, then tell me what you think college admissions' officers are looking for in an applicant's admissions essays.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting feedback is not the same as proofreading. Good writing instructors provide feedback but proofreading is for students and writing centers.

Good writing centers do not proofread. Rather they teach the students how to proofread themselves.

It is correct that students should proofread their own work before sharing it (I tell mine to read it out loud) BUT if you ask someone to read it over and they see a typo/misspelling, they will point it out.

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Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.

Fix it according to whom???

From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.

I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.

It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.

And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.

Signed, a writing professor

The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.

THIS. WTF to all the people saying profs won't proofread. I taught writing at the grad school level in a specific field of writing. I would absolutely proofread and any good prof will, too. That's is part of the writing process.

That is because you taught writing. Profs don't proofread papers.

Best bet may be to ask her to "compromise."

As we all know, advice coming from parents is often (heavily) discounted in their eyes.

Find a neutral 3rd party (with english expertise?) who will give her feedback. Tell her to receive it but remain in control of whether any of it gets incorporated.

Tell her it is good practice for college, where ALL of her writing will be critiqued by an ever-changing cast of characters.

Tell her that you respect it as her essay and agree it should reflect her voice. It is a very solid draft but even famous, published writers have editors (because we cannot know how our words will be interpreted by others).

Good luck!

I think there are two issues.

1. The actual essay. Is it ready for prime time? Does it need polishing? Should mom insist on polishing it back off?

2. Is student taking the application process seriously? College visits, application fees, final visits, and TUITION make for a massive financial investment from parents. Parents expect their teens to approach the process with as much seriousness and maturity they can muster. Starting and completing the common app in one afternoon, then refusing a round of feedback, sounds like the teen *might be* half-assing it.

Let’s not nitpick over issue 1. I think mom is really talking about issue 2. Perhaps teen needs another month of senior year for the importance of the application elements to since in. Maybe she’s nervous about growing up and is sabotaging herself. Maybe she doesn’t really understand the app review process. Whatever it is, I think mom needs to dig in around the underlying issues, rather than nag about the essay itself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She spent an afternoon on what I thought would be the first draft, but she said she’s done, refused to edit or take feedbacks for even slight changes to improve the flow. She has good stats and is applying to some selective schools, I feel it is a waste of the application fee by not taking the essay seriously.
It has been two weeks and she insists she doesn’t need help with her essay. What can I do?

You an cut the apron strings. Natural consequences. If the essay sucks and it's the difference in admission or not, she'll find out.

NP. Re: the bold: No, she won't find out. What colleges tell any rejected student such specific reasons for rejection? Admissions offices don't have time for that. OP's DD would never know whether she was turned down due to her essay, her scores etc., her extracurriculars, the fact she was oh so close but other students had just barely better this or that....Nope, the lesson for the DD will not be "See? You didn't get admitted because you were sloppy and resistant about accepting feedback on your essay!"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:She spent an afternoon on what I thought would be the first draft, but she said she’s done, refused to edit or take feedbacks for even slight changes to improve the flow. She has good stats and is applying to some selective schools, I feel it is a waste of the application fee by not taking the essay seriously.
It has been two weeks and she insists she doesn’t need help with her essay. What can I do?

You an cut the apron strings. Natural consequences. If the essay sucks and it's the difference in admission or not, she'll find out.

And the application fee? We don't even know how many schools OP's DD is applying to. Maybe the DD is over-stretching herself on applications and OP shouldn't fund this application fee. There are multiple ways to cut apron strings.