I think our society is not set up in a way where parents and children can truly thrive. The attitude is very “your kid is your problem”. Parents have to work at least 40 hours a week, usually more, so their kids get little attention. They’re thrown into daycares and schools where they are expected to sit still all day and basically raise themselves. There’s a tremendous amount of cultural trauma both parents and children are dealing with. Nobody is given the proper tools for raising children. There’s huge expectations on parents and children to perform to certain standards that aren’t what either are built to do.

For most of human evolution, we lived in small tribes. Everybody knew everybody and everybody helped raise each other’s kids. Kids got to run and play all day, they weren’t forced into chairs. Parents had dozens of other people helping them so they weren’t laboring all day long. Kids had hours each day with their parents. By the time people had kids, they had already helped raise dozens of other children with a wide range of personalities. Even cultural attitudes were different - in many hunter gatherers cultures that exist today, kids are allowed to do whatever they want, even things like playing with sharp knives. They are given much more autonomy. Most of our behavior requirements (sitting still, being quiet, never getting upset or throwing tantrums) are only because as a society we decided these things are a requirement when they’re not natural for kids.

So many of my friends have difficult children. But then I meet up with them, and I can see their kids are just being kids. The problem is they are in the wrong environment. I think we would see a huge reduction in behavior problems if our culture was structured in a way where 1. Kids got several hours a day of time outside playing and moving 2. Kids got several hours a day of focused, positive attention from multiple adults. Not sitting on a park bench saying “good job, Larla!” but actual interacting with the kids.

Unfortunately I don’t see our society getting there anytime soon. But I do hope one day we see the value of families.

Anonymous wrote:It's probably some combination of genetics/ingrained personality and inadequate parenting. I'm not saying your friends are bad parents per se, but a different approach is needed based on the girls' personality. There may even be some mental health issues going on, like emotional dysregulation or ADHD.

I wonder how those girls are at school. If it's as bad as you say, they must be having issues at school, too.

My kid is younger - just 6, but she is one of those kids who is generally well behaved at school (problem areas are too talkative/trouble staying in her seat/raising hand instead of calling out, and her teacher is a sticker for that stuff), very easygoing and friendly, but it uses up everything she has and at home she is incredibly difficult. She kicked me in the face this year. I have learned to keep physical distance from her in a tantrum. We finally got into counseling in the fall and the counselor we found with availability after nearly a year of searching was a recent grad who also couldn’t figure out how to get my kid to talk to her. She has been like this since she was little - she shuts down then explodes and we very rarely find out what is bothering her. Our natural parenting style is also not a good fit for her particular personality, which I’m sure compounded the issue and has made things much harder for everyone. She can be such a neat kid, and has so many wonderful qualities, but at home we only get glimpses of that. Everyone else gets that all of the time. A teacher saw her in a mood recently and was shocked that DD acted that way.

Our 3 yo is completely different.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above- I want to clarify that I’m not saying that kids who act out always have abusive parents, but rather there’s often something like developmental delays or mental illness or sensory processing challenges behind a child’s behavior.

I agree, and my first thought when I read the OP was actually autism. Often what autistic kids need are things that are considered indulgent by other parents. Parents who are doing a good job raising their autistic kids would probably be accused of having bad boundaries. I have no idea what’s going on with the people OP is talking about but I would assume that a) they are doing their best and b) the kids have special needs and they need something different from what they’re getting.

This is such a valuable observation. Sometimes autistic kids need a level of tenderness and accommodation that simply looks like lazy, bad parenting to someone who has only ever worked with NT kids. Other parents don't understand that the reason you might give an autistic child something they've demanded in a rude voice (without saying please) is because their need for whatever they are asking for is immediate and critical. It's different than an non-autistic child screaming "Gimme another ice cream!" where the appropriate parenting response is to calmly say no and then remove the child from the situation. With an autistic child, they might be screaming that they need to go close the door you just closed themselves, and demand that you open the door so that they can close it. But for the autistic child, this ritual is an actual need, and they may not be able to regain emotional regulation until it happens. It looks like the parent is getting bossed around by the child, but actually the parent is making a calculated choice to accommodate what seems like a random need (and is the result of OCD behaviors that are common in many autistic people) in order to facilitate the child regaining regulation so that you can move forward. It's not lazy, it's a ton of work. But people who don't work with autistic kids don't get that. They think the parents are just being pushovers and that the failure to say no to such requests in the past are causing the behavior to happen now. For a child diagnosed with autism, the opposite is often true -- the parent used to hold firm boundaries in those situations before diagnosis, and has since had to learn how to be flexible in these situations because their child's brain is not wired to learn from that kind of boundary. It's wired to lose control when a boundary like that is set.

Disagree. Children aren’t born with brains wired in stone. The environment largely dictates which way development will go. But few children actually get consistent healthy boundaries, so poor self-regulation has gone off the charts. Most parents are just too exhausted these days to effectively deal with behavior issues. I’ve had some experience with this. The boundaries I established were appropriate and consistent. His parents couldn’t understand why I had no behavior issues with their child. Of course the child needs to feel truly loved, or nothing will work.

The armchair neurologist has arrived.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above- I want to clarify that I’m not saying that kids who act out always have abusive parents, but rather there’s often something like developmental delays or mental illness or sensory processing challenges behind a child’s behavior.

I agree, and my first thought when I read the OP was actually autism. Often what autistic kids need are things that are considered indulgent by other parents. Parents who are doing a good job raising their autistic kids would probably be accused of having bad boundaries. I have no idea what’s going on with the people OP is talking about but I would assume that a) they are doing their best and b) the kids have special needs and they need something different from what they’re getting.

This is such a valuable observation. Sometimes autistic kids need a level of tenderness and accommodation that simply looks like lazy, bad parenting to someone who has only ever worked with NT kids. Other parents don't understand that the reason you might give an autistic child something they've demanded in a rude voice (without saying please) is because their need for whatever they are asking for is immediate and critical. It's different than an non-autistic child screaming "Gimme another ice cream!" where the appropriate parenting response is to calmly say no and then remove the child from the situation. With an autistic child, they might be screaming that they need to go close the door you just closed themselves, and demand that you open the door so that they can close it. But for the autistic child, this ritual is an actual need, and they may not be able to regain emotional regulation until it happens. It looks like the parent is getting bossed around by the child, but actually the parent is making a calculated choice to accommodate what seems like a random need (and is the result of OCD behaviors that are common in many autistic people) in order to facilitate the child regaining regulation so that you can move forward. It's not lazy, it's a ton of work. But people who don't work with autistic kids don't get that. They think the parents are just being pushovers and that the failure to say no to such requests in the past are causing the behavior to happen now. For a child diagnosed with autism, the opposite is often true -- the parent used to hold firm boundaries in those situations before diagnosis, and has since had to learn how to be flexible in these situations because their child's brain is not wired to learn from that kind of boundary. It's wired to lose control when a boundary like that is set.

Disagree. Children aren’t born with brains wired in stone. The environment largely dictates which way development will go. But few children actually get consistent healthy boundaries, so poor self-regulation has gone off the charts. Most parents are just too exhausted these days to effectively deal with behavior issues. I’ve had some experience with this. The boundaries I established were appropriate and consistent. His parents couldn’t understand why I had no behavior issues with their child. Of course the child needs to feel truly loved, or nothing will work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above- I want to clarify that I’m not saying that kids who act out always have abusive parents, but rather there’s often something like developmental delays or mental illness or sensory processing challenges behind a child’s behavior.

I agree, and my first thought when I read the OP was actually autism. Often what autistic kids need are things that are considered indulgent by other parents. Parents who are doing a good job raising their autistic kids would probably be accused of having bad boundaries. I have no idea what’s going on with the people OP is talking about but I would assume that a) they are doing their best and b) the kids have special needs and they need something different from what they’re getting.

This is such a valuable observation. Sometimes autistic kids need a level of tenderness and accommodation that simply looks like lazy, bad parenting to someone who has only ever worked with NT kids. Other parents don't understand that the reason you might give an autistic child something they've demanded in a rude voice (without saying please) is because their need for whatever they are asking for is immediate and critical. It's different than an non-autistic child screaming "Gimme another ice cream!" where the appropriate parenting response is to calmly say no and then remove the child from the situation. With an autistic child, they might be screaming that they need to go close the door you just closed themselves, and demand that you open the door so that they can close it. But for the autistic child, this ritual is an actual need, and they may not be able to regain emotional regulation until it happens. It looks like the parent is getting bossed around by the child, but actually the parent is making a calculated choice to accommodate what seems like a random need (and is the result of OCD behaviors that are common in many autistic people) in order to facilitate the child regaining regulation so that you can move forward. It's not lazy, it's a ton of work. But people who don't work with autistic kids don't get that. They think the parents are just being pushovers and that the failure to say no to such requests in the past are causing the behavior to happen now. For a child diagnosed with autism, the opposite is often true -- the parent used to hold firm boundaries in those situations before diagnosis, and has since had to learn how to be flexible in these situations because their child's brain is not wired to learn from that kind of boundary. It's wired to lose control when a boundary like that is set.

This!!!

Anonymous wrote:Do you think they were born with this personality?

I have a friend who has two girls with very difficult personalities. Both kids seem to have major anger management issues, like violent throwing hitting screaming behavior over small disagreements. I have known them for years and these girls seem the most severe. Both parents are great. They try to discipline but doesn’t get anywhere. Kids will hit one another and the parents. They are in early elementary and will scratch and bruise their parents.

The parents are obviously anything but great. Your judgment of them is distorted. Plus, you have no idea what’s going on behind closed doors.

Anonymous wrote:Past karma. These children have souls that were injured in a previous life by the souls of the parents. They have been born as the children of these parents to make their lives miserable in this life. This is retribution plain and simple.

Okay, I think we've got this figured out!

If this toddler like behavior is happening with a 9 yo, I suspect t more than just “difficult personality.” Sounds like a developmental disorder.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The part about scratching and bruising their parents makes me think that there is a mental health issue and not just a parenting issue. Even parents who are bad at discipline and boundaries Won’t have kids scratching their faces and bruising them.

When I first met the mom, she had some scratches. I thought she had a cat. Later learned the kid scratched her. Kid was a toddler so I thought nothing of it. It is many years later and oldest is now 9. Dad had scratches and bruises recently from the girl. I have seen both girls have massive screaming throwing fits over very small things like food not being exactly how she wanted it or flavor ice cream ran out.

If they have no mental problems then they are just spoiled brats. I wouldn't put up with behavior for five seconds.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The part about scratching and bruising their parents makes me think that there is a mental health issue and not just a parenting issue. Even parents who are bad at discipline and boundaries Won’t have kids scratching their faces and bruising them.

When I first met the mom, she had some scratches. I thought she had a cat. Later learned the kid scratched her. Kid was a toddler so I thought nothing of it. It is many years later and oldest is now 9. Dad had scratches and bruises recently from the girl. I have seen both girls have massive screaming throwing fits over very small things like food not being exactly how she wanted it or flavor ice cream ran out.

What you describe goes beyond "difficult personality," OP. Especially if the parents haven't figured out in all these years how to reduce the physical aggression, something's up (something you're not aware of). Situations that extreme are almost always some combination of genes and environment.

Probably a lot less environment and a lot more genes.

The more children you have, the more you realize how little influence you actually have.

Alternatively, your individual influence over children diminishes the more you have. Parents of onlies have immense influence. Parents of two kids must split their influence with the influence of a sibling dynamic. And so on. There are of course genetics at play, but all people are heavily influenced by their environment and in particular by the people around them.

I think one reason a lot of people will discount parental influence is because they don't understand how influence works. Like one dynamic I see a lot is the perfectionist parent who is always correcting and pushing their kid and then gets frustrated when their child does not respond by becoming exacting and hard working like them. But that's because the parent's behavior is making the child terrified of making mistakes, so the child learns to not try at all as a defense mechanism. The unintentional consequences of crappy parenting are often right in front of them, but the parent will say "huh, I guess this child is just genetically predisposed for laziness." So little self awareness.

People discount parental influence because they have multiple kids with varying personalities that are evident from infancy. There have been twin studies and adoptee studies supporting nature over nurture as well — those kids turned out the same when raised in different environments. Of course parental influence matters on the extreme ends of the spectrum, but not as much as people tend to think.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The part about scratching and bruising their parents makes me think that there is a mental health issue and not just a parenting issue. Even parents who are bad at discipline and boundaries Won’t have kids scratching their faces and bruising them.

When I first met the mom, she had some scratches. I thought she had a cat. Later learned the kid scratched her. Kid was a toddler so I thought nothing of it. It is many years later and oldest is now 9. Dad had scratches and bruises recently from the girl. I have seen both girls have massive screaming throwing fits over very small things like food not being exactly how she wanted it or flavor ice cream ran out.

What you describe goes beyond "difficult personality," OP. Especially if the parents haven't figured out in all these years how to reduce the physical aggression, something's up (something you're not aware of). Situations that extreme are almost always some combination of genes and environment.

Probably a lot less environment and a lot more genes.

The more children you have, the more you realize how little influence you actually have.

Alternatively, your individual influence over children diminishes the more you have. Parents of onlies have immense influence. Parents of two kids must split their influence with the influence of a sibling dynamic. And so on. There are of course genetics at play, but all people are heavily influenced by their environment and in particular by the people around them.

I think one reason a lot of people will discount parental influence is because they don't understand how influence works. Like one dynamic I see a lot is the perfectionist parent who is always correcting and pushing their kid and then gets frustrated when their child does not respond by becoming exacting and hard working like them. But that's because the parent's behavior is making the child terrified of making mistakes, so the child learns to not try at all as a defense mechanism. The unintentional consequences of crappy parenting are often right in front of them, but the parent will say "huh, I guess this child is just genetically predisposed for laziness." So little self awareness.

How might one dig themselves out from this situation? My spouse is exacting and we’ve ended up with a “lazy” child. I don’t know what to do!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP above- I want to clarify that I’m not saying that kids who act out always have abusive parents, but rather there’s often something like developmental delays or mental illness or sensory processing challenges behind a child’s behavior.

I agree, and my first thought when I read the OP was actually autism. Often what autistic kids need are things that are considered indulgent by other parents. Parents who are doing a good job raising their autistic kids would probably be accused of having bad boundaries. I have no idea what’s going on with the people OP is talking about but I would assume that a) they are doing their best and b) the kids have special needs and they need something different from what they’re getting.

This is such a valuable observation. Sometimes autistic kids need a level of tenderness and accommodation that simply looks like lazy, bad parenting to someone who has only ever worked with NT kids. Other parents don't understand that the reason you might give an autistic child something they've demanded in a rude voice (without saying please) is because their need for whatever they are asking for is immediate and critical. It's different than an non-autistic child screaming "Gimme another ice cream!" where the appropriate parenting response is to calmly say no and then remove the child from the situation. With an autistic child, they might be screaming that they need to go close the door you just closed themselves, and demand that you open the door so that they can close it. But for the autistic child, this ritual is an actual need, and they may not be able to regain emotional regulation until it happens. It looks like the parent is getting bossed around by the child, but actually the parent is making a calculated choice to accommodate what seems like a random need (and is the result of OCD behaviors that are common in many autistic people) in order to facilitate the child regaining regulation so that you can move forward. It's not lazy, it's a ton of work. But people who don't work with autistic kids don't get that. They think the parents are just being pushovers and that the failure to say no to such requests in the past are causing the behavior to happen now. For a child diagnosed with autism, the opposite is often true -- the parent used to hold firm boundaries in those situations before diagnosis, and has since had to learn how to be flexible in these situations because their child's brain is not wired to learn from that kind of boundary. It's wired to lose control when a boundary like that is set.

My kid was incredibly difficult until about age 15 1/2. Suddenly, he grew up overnight. He’s now very driven, intense, and a “leader”. He has moderated his difficult personality, although it still can come out when hungry or tired. But he’s more self-aware.

Anyway, I think it’s nearly completely innate because my other kids came out quite differently. It’s just who he is.

Anonymous wrote:I have a sibling with what would now be diagnosed as developmental delays and mental illness, but were ignored in the 80s. My late father probably had autism and my mother was and is severely depressed. They did not have coping skills to manage the challenges of everyday adult life. On the outside, my mother went to great lengths to make us look like a clean-cut, preppy, perfect family. At home, she did everything to try to cover my brother’s deficits and mold me into the daughter she wanted versus who I actually was. She hit and slapped me and the slightest deviations from what she saw as an ideal child resulted in physical and verbal abuse. However, I don’t think anyone ever witnessed her behavior toward me in public.

Once in a while, though, things would leak out and neighbors would see my brother and I in violent physical fights and screaming matches. That was how we learned to deal with frustration, disappointment, disagreement, etc. I’m sure the neighbors wondered what was going on.

There is always something going on.

Aaaaaaall of this. I had a very similar upbringing, similar parent profile. Both my brothers have ADHD, but diagnosed as adults. We definitely presents as perfect, functional, middle class American family to the public but were a total mess at home. My sister and I both became perfectionists and people pleasers because we were always working so hard to both avoid provoking our parents and to not take up resources needed to deal with my brothers, who had much more dramatic behavioral issues due to ADHD wiring (which my dad also definitely has).

One reason my husband and I work as a couple is that he was the first boyfriend I had (and honestly first friend I had) who saw the cracks in what happens with my family. Before him, if I told anyone what my house was like growing up they simply did not believe me because they were fooled by how nice and friendly my parents, but especially my mom, are to outsiders. But my DH almost immediately picked up on little stuff, like the way my mom physically picks at me even in public (fixing my hair, my clothes, touching my face without asking, making comments about posture and appearance, etc.) and the way my dad never actually looks at me or listens to anything I say. DH notice how my parents treated me, more than he was taken in by how they treated him (which is welcoming and kind, as always). A real testament to how much DH loves me, actually.

I have sometimes wished my family's dysfunction had been more visible and obvious when I was a kid, even though I know this would also have resulted in lots of negative attention from people as well (if people had known, some of them would have called us trashy and not let their kids be friends with me). But instead I spent my childhood being gaslit and also participating in gaslighting everyone else and it made it a lot harder to figure out how to undo that damage later on because for years I was like "oh no, my family was totally normal and healthy, what are you talking about" even as therapist after therapist gently suggested that the way our parents treated us was not normal or healthy. I was 30 before I really started to understand.

As someone who was labeled this way ...

Part of it is that I was extremely sensitive as a kid, and was pushed very hard to the point of punishment, to not be. Instead of just working around my sensitivities, which in many cases, could have been done. The other part, is that I just had a different personality than the rest of my family. I was born dramatic and a performer. And I was born into a family of wallflowers. The family motto was "Never attract any attention. Any attention you attract is bad attention." So if I wanted to say something funny at a family gathering and everyone laughed, my parents yanked me out of the room, yelled at me, spanked me, and punished me more when I got home. I was labeled the difficult child. But really, I was just born into the wrong family. If I didn't look so much like everyone I'd wonder if I was adopted.