Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the takeaway this, which most people here don't seem to be understanding: the physical ailments that would generally be responsible for causing the reported symptoms of "long Covid" are not present in higher rates in the Covid test group than in the control group. Meaning, there is, according to this study, no evidence of Covid causing long-term health problems. There is some evidence that those symptoms may be caused by underlying anxiety. So many posters seem to be interpreting this as "long term Covid exists and we still don't know why."

Yes, that is the conclusion (the "scientist's" objection notwithstanding), and it is congruent with all other Long Covid studies that had a proper control group. The problem isn't that we don't have the proper tests to pinpoint the physiological cause. The problem is that there is no statistical difference in the prevalence of these symptoms between the test group and the control group, and therefore no evidence that the virus caused the symptoms.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you explain my cardiac issues that are very clearly seen via MRI and echocardiogram? And no, they weren’t there previously. I am in my 30s, incredibly fit, was running 35-40 miles per week before I got sick (this was pre-vaccine; first wave). Literally couldn’t breathe even though my lung capacity is usually off the charts. I needed inhalers for the first time in my life and even those didn’t work super well. Ekg and blood work showed many abnormalities. I was declared disabled for 1.5 years because I had medical evidence of my persistent illness. These are all very objective measures. Nothing psychosomatic about it.

So you had MRIs and echocardiograms before your 30s? I would have to ask why? If these were not visible before COVID and are now, I could see how you would jump to causation and not correlation. However, I assume you actually never had an MRI or echo before, so you have no evidence. My sister developed the problems that you describe in her mid-30s--in 2002! Long before Covid. And many thousands of others develop these issues in their 30s as well. Please, understand, correlation is not causation. Talk a bit about your mindset overall. What are your stress and anxiety levels like generally?

I had had cardiac work ups before long covid thank you very much. I have been an athlete (former college athlete) my entire life. Now what else do you want to tell me is all in my head?

Why? I was a division 1 college athlete in an actual, cardio intensive sport and never once had a cardiac work up involving EKGs, MRIs, and bloodwork. I assume, then, there was a red flag at some point in time. Wouldn't that be just as likely a suspect in your case of shortness of breath and abnormalities? Related to whatever prompted the testing earlier in your life?

I don’t need to justify any of my medical diagnoses to you — someone who seems intent on telling me that it’s all in my head. And no, there were no red flags prior to being infected with covid, but thanks. You never once had bloodwork done? Never a complete physical including imaging? OK. Good for you. Let’s hope you don’t have some latent issue waiting to rear its ugly head since it sounds like you’ve never had to see a doctor. I’m glad I’ve had more thorough medical care throughout my life. Good luck to you. And maybe try being less of an ass at some point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the takeaway this, which most people here don't seem to be understanding: the physical ailments that would generally be responsible for causing the reported symptoms of "long Covid" are not present in higher rates in the Covid test group than in the control group. Meaning, there is, according to this study, no evidence of Covid causing long-term health problems. There is some evidence that those symptoms may be caused by underlying anxiety. So many posters seem to be interpreting this as "long term Covid exists and we still don't know why."

No, that is not the correct interpretation (scientist here). The correct interpretation is not that there are no health problems. In fact, there are numerous studies that connect COVID with increased risk for vascular problems, diabetes, even impotence. That said, long covid is not about increased risk but about symptoms.

The correct interpretation is that “none of the tests performed in this study were significantly different between the two groups.”

There are numerous illnesses we accept as real and that there are no physiological tests for, just reports of symptoms or fuzzy cognitive tests that are impossible to standardize. Examples include schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s, ADHD, and chronic back or knee pain. We assume many many people are sick with colds even without finding their specific virus or physiological signals. So the conclusion of this study doesn’t say much. It definitely does not say long covid is just a bunch of lazy fakers, and it definitely doesn’t say it isn’t, either. Science is slow, and is abused if you jump to conclusions.

Like jumping to the conclusion that covid will cause rampant long term damage to the health of the majority of people who get it? Is that the type of conclusion you’re worried about people jumping to?

That would not be a warranted conclusion of this study, but your histrionics are unwarranted. This is one study. It was a high quality study. It ran some good tests. We can draw the conclusions I stated above from it. We cannot address your agenda particular at this stage.

It takes us hundreds of studies to figure out that smoking is bad for you and hundreds of studies to see that oat bran is not a heart panacea. We are learning. We will keep learning, if we continue to be methodical, rigorous and open minded. If you want to be sure of something one way or the other in terms of the far future of this pandemic, sadly science has little to offer you at this stage. This study did not identify physiological signatures of long covid. That is all.

There were long term effects of the 1918 influenza pandemic (for example, increased risk of Parkinson’s by sufferers). There has also a lot of speculation of some sort of post viral syndrome for that pandemic too for which there is reasonably strong circumstantial evidence for this (there is a good discussion of this along with some more speculative ideas in “The Great Influenza,” if you are looking for a popular treatment), but few scientists would say we are able to have conclusive evidence of this being true or not.

NP. The PP you initially responded to didn't state that this study definitively concludes that Long Covid has no physiological cause. She said that it shows that at this point, there is no evidence that the symptoms are related to SARS-CoV-2, because there was no difference in their occurrence between the two arms of the study. That is true, and by the way, it is in line with previous controlled studies of Long Covid. Yes, we need more studies, but this wasn't the first one to come to this finding.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you explain my cardiac issues that are very clearly seen via MRI and echocardiogram? And no, they weren’t there previously. I am in my 30s, incredibly fit, was running 35-40 miles per week before I got sick (this was pre-vaccine; first wave). Literally couldn’t breathe even though my lung capacity is usually off the charts. I needed inhalers for the first time in my life and even those didn’t work super well. Ekg and blood work showed many abnormalities. I was declared disabled for 1.5 years because I had medical evidence of my persistent illness. These are all very objective measures. Nothing psychosomatic about it.

So you had MRIs and echocardiograms before your 30s? I would have to ask why? If these were not visible before COVID and are now, I could see how you would jump to causation and not correlation. However, I assume you actually never had an MRI or echo before, so you have no evidence. My sister developed the problems that you describe in her mid-30s--in 2002! Long before Covid. And many thousands of others develop these issues in their 30s as well. Please, understand, correlation is not causation. Talk a bit about your mindset overall. What are your stress and anxiety levels like generally?

I had had cardiac work ups before long covid thank you very much. I have been an athlete (former college athlete) my entire life. Now what else do you want to tell me is all in my head?

Why? I was a division 1 college athlete in an actual, cardio intensive sport and never once had a cardiac work up involving EKGs, MRIs, and bloodwork. I assume, then, there was a red flag at some point in time. Wouldn't that be just as likely a suspect in your case of shortness of breath and abnormalities? Related to whatever prompted the testing earlier in your life?

I don’t need to justify any of my medical diagnoses to you — someone who seems intent on telling me that it’s all in my head. And no, there were no red flags prior to being infected with covid, but thanks. You never once had bloodwork done? Never a complete physical including imaging? OK. Good for you. Let’s hope you don’t have some latent issue waiting to rear its ugly head since it sounds like you’ve never had to see a doctor. I’m glad I’ve had more thorough medical care throughout my life. Good luck to you. And maybe try being less of an ass at some point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you explain my cardiac issues that are very clearly seen via MRI and echocardiogram? And no, they weren’t there previously. I am in my 30s, incredibly fit, was running 35-40 miles per week before I got sick (this was pre-vaccine; first wave). Literally couldn’t breathe even though my lung capacity is usually off the charts. I needed inhalers for the first time in my life and even those didn’t work super well. Ekg and blood work showed many abnormalities. I was declared disabled for 1.5 years because I had medical evidence of my persistent illness. These are all very objective measures. Nothing psychosomatic about it.

So you had MRIs and echocardiograms before your 30s? I would have to ask why? If these were not visible before COVID and are now, I could see how you would jump to causation and not correlation. However, I assume you actually never had an MRI or echo before, so you have no evidence. My sister developed the problems that you describe in her mid-30s--in 2002! Long before Covid. And many thousands of others develop these issues in their 30s as well. Please, understand, correlation is not causation. Talk a bit about your mindset overall. What are your stress and anxiety levels like generally?

I had had cardiac work ups before long covid thank you very much. I have been an athlete (former college athlete) my entire life. Now what else do you want to tell me is all in my head?

Why? I was a division 1 college athlete in an actual, cardio intensive sport and never once had a cardiac work up involving EKGs, MRIs, and bloodwork. I assume, then, there was a red flag at some point in time. Wouldn't that be just as likely a suspect in your case of shortness of breath and abnormalities? Related to whatever prompted the testing earlier in your life?

I don’t need to justify any of my medical diagnoses to you — someone who seems intent on telling me that it’s all in my head. And no, there were no red flags prior to being infected with covid, but thanks. You never once had bloodwork done? Never a complete physical including imaging? OK. Good for you. Let’s hope you don’t have some latent issue waiting to rear its ugly head since it sounds like you’ve never had to see a doctor. I’m glad I’ve had more thorough medical care throughout my life. Good luck to you. And maybe try being less of an ass at some point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the takeaway this, which most people here don't seem to be understanding: the physical ailments that would generally be responsible for causing the reported symptoms of "long Covid" are not present in higher rates in the Covid test group than in the control group. Meaning, there is, according to this study, no evidence of Covid causing long-term health problems. There is some evidence that those symptoms may be caused by underlying anxiety. So many posters seem to be interpreting this as "long term Covid exists and we still don't know why."

No, that is not the correct interpretation (scientist here). The correct interpretation is not that there are no health problems. In fact, there are numerous studies that connect COVID with increased risk for vascular problems, diabetes, even impotence. That said, long covid is not about increased risk but about symptoms.

The correct interpretation is that “none of the tests performed in this study were significantly different between the two groups.”

There are numerous illnesses we accept as real and that there are no physiological tests for, just reports of symptoms or fuzzy cognitive tests that are impossible to standardize. Examples include schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s, ADHD, and chronic back or knee pain. We assume many many people are sick with colds even without finding their specific virus or physiological signals. So the conclusion of this study doesn’t say much. It definitely does not say long covid is just a bunch of lazy fakers, and it definitely doesn’t say it isn’t, either. Science is slow, and is abused if you jump to conclusions.

Like jumping to the conclusion that covid will cause rampant long term damage to the health of the majority of people who get it? Is that the type of conclusion you’re worried about people jumping to?

That would not be a warranted conclusion of this study, but your histrionics are unwarranted. This is one study. It was a high quality study. It ran some good tests. We can draw the conclusions I stated above from it. We cannot address your agenda particular at this stage.

It takes us hundreds of studies to figure out that smoking is bad for you and hundreds of studies to see that oat bran is not a heart panacea. We are learning. We will keep learning, if we continue to be methodical, rigorous and open minded. If you want to be sure of something one way or the other in terms of the far future of this pandemic, sadly science has little to offer you at this stage. This study did not identify physiological signatures of long covid. That is all.

There were long term effects of the 1918 influenza pandemic (for example, increased risk of Parkinson’s by sufferers). There has also a lot of speculation of some sort of post viral syndrome for that pandemic too for which there is reasonably strong circumstantial evidence for this (there is a good discussion of this along with some more speculative ideas in “The Great Influenza,” if you are looking for a popular treatment), but few scientists would say we are able to have conclusive evidence of this being true or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yup its the new fibromialga

FM is a real diagnosis.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the takeaway this, which most people here don't seem to be understanding: the physical ailments that would generally be responsible for causing the reported symptoms of "long Covid" are not present in higher rates in the Covid test group than in the control group. Meaning, there is, according to this study, no evidence of Covid causing long-term health problems. There is some evidence that those symptoms may be caused by underlying anxiety. So many posters seem to be interpreting this as "long term Covid exists and we still don't know why."

No, that is not the correct interpretation (scientist here). The correct interpretation is not that there are no health problems. In fact, there are numerous studies that connect COVID with increased risk for vascular problems, diabetes, even impotence. That said, long covid is not about increased risk but about symptoms.

The correct interpretation is that “none of the tests performed in this study were significantly different between the two groups.”

There are numerous illnesses we accept as real and that there are no physiological tests for, just reports of symptoms or fuzzy cognitive tests that are impossible to standardize. Examples include schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s, ADHD, and chronic back or knee pain. We assume many many people are sick with colds even without finding their specific virus or physiological signals. So the conclusion of this study doesn’t say much. It definitely does not say long covid is just a bunch of lazy fakers, and it definitely doesn’t say it isn’t, either. Science is slow, and is abused if you jump to conclusions.

Like jumping to the conclusion that covid will cause rampant long term damage to the health of the majority of people who get it? Is that the type of conclusion you’re worried about people jumping to?

That would not be a warranted conclusion of this study, but your histrionics are unwarranted. This is one study. It was a high quality study. It ran some good tests. We can draw the conclusions I stated above from it. We cannot address your agenda particular at this stage.

It takes us hundreds of studies to figure out that smoking is bad for you and hundreds of studies to see that oat bran is not a heart panacea. We are learning. We will keep learning, if we continue to be methodical, rigorous and open minded. If you want to be sure of something one way or the other in terms of the far future of this pandemic, sadly science has little to offer you at this stage. This study did not identify physiological signatures of long covid. That is all.

There were long term effects of the 1918 influenza pandemic (for example, increased risk of Parkinson’s by sufferers). There has also a lot of speculation of some sort of post viral syndrome for that pandemic too for which there is reasonably strong circumstantial evidence for this (there is a good discussion of this along with some more speculative ideas in “The Great Influenza,” if you are looking for a popular treatment), but few scientists would say we are able to have conclusive evidence of this being true or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you explain my cardiac issues that are very clearly seen via MRI and echocardiogram? And no, they weren’t there previously. I am in my 30s, incredibly fit, was running 35-40 miles per week before I got sick (this was pre-vaccine; first wave). Literally couldn’t breathe even though my lung capacity is usually off the charts. I needed inhalers for the first time in my life and even those didn’t work super well. Ekg and blood work showed many abnormalities. I was declared disabled for 1.5 years because I had medical evidence of my persistent illness. These are all very objective measures. Nothing psychosomatic about it.

So you had MRIs and echocardiograms before your 30s? I would have to ask why? If these were not visible before COVID and are now, I could see how you would jump to causation and not correlation. However, I assume you actually never had an MRI or echo before, so you have no evidence. My sister developed the problems that you describe in her mid-30s--in 2002! Long before Covid. And many thousands of others develop these issues in their 30s as well. Please, understand, correlation is not causation. Talk a bit about your mindset overall. What are your stress and anxiety levels like generally?

I had had cardiac work ups before long covid thank you very much. I have been an athlete (former college athlete) my entire life. Now what else do you want to tell me is all in my head?

Why? I was a division 1 college athlete in an actual, cardio intensive sport and never once had a cardiac work up involving EKGs, MRIs, and bloodwork. I assume, then, there was a red flag at some point in time. Wouldn't that be just as likely a suspect in your case of shortness of breath and abnormalities? Related to whatever prompted the testing earlier in your life?

I don’t need to justify any of my medical diagnoses to you — someone who seems intent on telling me that it’s all in my head. And no, there were no red flags prior to being infected with covid, but thanks. You never once had bloodwork done? Never a complete physical including imaging? OK. Good for you. Let’s hope you don’t have some latent issue waiting to rear its ugly head since it sounds like you’ve never had to see a doctor. I’m glad I’ve had more thorough medical care throughout my life. Good luck to you. And maybe try being less of an ass at some point.

Anonymous wrote:yup its the new fibromialga

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Long covid is way for anxious people to keep hiding from the world

Tell that to my cousin who loved her life and job but who has her 80 year old parents caring for her now that she’s disabled.

Or my nephew who needs two inhalers but never had asthma before.

Just stop. Focus on learning how to write and not making fun of sick people.
I bet you laughed and applauded when Twitler mocked a journalist with disabilities too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Long covid is way for anxious people to keep hiding from the world

Tell that to my cousin who loved her life and job but who has her 80 year old parents caring for her now that she’s disabled.

Or my nephew who needs two inhalers but never had asthma before.

Just stop. Focus on learning how to write and not making fun of sick people.
I bet you laughed and applauded when Twitler mocked a journalist with disabilities too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you explain my cardiac issues that are very clearly seen via MRI and echocardiogram? And no, they weren’t there previously. I am in my 30s, incredibly fit, was running 35-40 miles per week before I got sick (this was pre-vaccine; first wave). Literally couldn’t breathe even though my lung capacity is usually off the charts. I needed inhalers for the first time in my life and even those didn’t work super well. Ekg and blood work showed many abnormalities. I was declared disabled for 1.5 years because I had medical evidence of my persistent illness. These are all very objective measures. Nothing psychosomatic about it.

So you had MRIs and echocardiograms before your 30s? I would have to ask why? If these were not visible before COVID and are now, I could see how you would jump to causation and not correlation. However, I assume you actually never had an MRI or echo before, so you have no evidence. My sister developed the problems that you describe in her mid-30s--in 2002! Long before Covid. And many thousands of others develop these issues in their 30s as well. Please, understand, correlation is not causation. Talk a bit about your mindset overall. What are your stress and anxiety levels like generally?

I had had cardiac work ups before long covid thank you very much. I have been an athlete (former college athlete) my entire life. Now what else do you want to tell me is all in my head?

Why? I was a division 1 college athlete in an actual, cardio intensive sport and never once had a cardiac work up involving EKGs, MRIs, and bloodwork. I assume, then, there was a red flag at some point in time. Wouldn't that be just as likely a suspect in your case of shortness of breath and abnormalities? Related to whatever prompted the testing earlier in your life?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you explain my cardiac issues that are very clearly seen via MRI and echocardiogram? And no, they weren’t there previously. I am in my 30s, incredibly fit, was running 35-40 miles per week before I got sick (this was pre-vaccine; first wave). Literally couldn’t breathe even though my lung capacity is usually off the charts. I needed inhalers for the first time in my life and even those didn’t work super well. Ekg and blood work showed many abnormalities. I was declared disabled for 1.5 years because I had medical evidence of my persistent illness. These are all very objective measures. Nothing psychosomatic about it.

So you had MRIs and echocardiograms before your 30s? I would have to ask why? If these were not visible before COVID and are now, I could see how you would jump to causation and not correlation. However, I assume you actually never had an MRI or echo before, so you have no evidence. My sister developed the problems that you describe in her mid-30s--in 2002! Long before Covid. And many thousands of others develop these issues in their 30s as well. Please, understand, correlation is not causation. Talk a bit about your mindset overall. What are your stress and anxiety levels like generally?

I had had cardiac work ups before long covid thank you very much. I have been an athlete (former college athlete) my entire life. Now what else do you want to tell me is all in my head?

Why? I was a division 1 college athlete in an actual, cardio intensive sport and never once had a cardiac work up involving EKGs, MRIs, and bloodwork. I assume, then, there was a red flag at some point in time. Wouldn't that be just as likely a suspect in your case of shortness of breath and abnormalities? Related to whatever prompted the testing earlier in your life?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Isn't the takeaway this, which most people here don't seem to be understanding: the physical ailments that would generally be responsible for causing the reported symptoms of "long Covid" are not present in higher rates in the Covid test group than in the control group. Meaning, there is, according to this study, no evidence of Covid causing long-term health problems. There is some evidence that those symptoms may be caused by underlying anxiety. So many posters seem to be interpreting this as "long term Covid exists and we still don't know why."

No, that is not the correct interpretation (scientist here). The correct interpretation is not that there are no health problems. In fact, there are numerous studies that connect COVID with increased risk for vascular problems, diabetes, even impotence. That said, long covid is not about increased risk but about symptoms.

The correct interpretation is that “none of the tests performed in this study were significantly different between the two groups.”

There are numerous illnesses we accept as real and that there are no physiological tests for, just reports of symptoms or fuzzy cognitive tests that are impossible to standardize. Examples include schizophrenia, Alzheimer’s, ADHD, and chronic back or knee pain. We assume many many people are sick with colds even without finding their specific virus or physiological signals. So the conclusion of this study doesn’t say much. It definitely does not say long covid is just a bunch of lazy fakers, and it definitely doesn’t say it isn’t, either. Science is slow, and is abused if you jump to conclusions.

Like jumping to the conclusion that covid will cause rampant long term damage to the health of the majority of people who get it? Is that the type of conclusion you’re worried about people jumping to?