Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would a love match to a member of the landed gentry really be so far outside the realm of possibility? It was a fantasy but is there anything specific that would make it impossible? Or just a love match to somebody in the church? Or even a trade?

I think that if Elizabeth didn’t find a love match she would have remained single.

One of her problems was her rural isolation and apparently small extended family. I think her best bet would have been meeting a man through the Gardiners, but he would have been a professional man in their circles, not a gentleman. Still could have been a man of sense and education and the son of a gentleman, but someone in line to inherit an estate.

The Gardiners were affluent London merchants (not a barrister). Mr. Gardiner was Mrs. Bennett's brother, and he would have been the son of the country solicitor that was Mrs. Bennett's father, and who was also father to Aunt Phillips, whose husband was also an attorney.

This shows that the social boundaries between the minor gentry and affluent professionals and solicitors and merchants was always fluid. Mrs. Bennett did comment there had been a fellow merchant friend of Mr. Gardiner who showed interest in Jane and she'd have been satisfied with that match.

Darcy was a much higher rank. By the standards of the day, the provincial gentry and working merchants were far below him in social status. Although he had no title, he was the grandson of an earl and his family's fortune, estate, and history placed him very high up in the social ranks. It was a different world from the Bennetts. I daresay a decent comparison to today would be comfortably off UMC people with net worth of 5-10M to someone worth 100+M.

Funny comparison. So in DCUM-land, the Bennetts live in MoCo in a nice $1.5M home which they bought for the good schools because sending 5 kids to private is too much. They fret about their home prices going down with affordable housing going up in the area, and gossip about the tech guy building a McMansion nearby (Mr. Bingley). Mr. Bennett brings in a reliable income as a fed, but he's really checked out and just in it for the benefits and steady paycheck. Mrs. Bennett used to work before they had kids, but now she's a SAHM and she obsesses a lot about getting the kids into a good college.

Whereas Mr. Darcy is like from the NYC old-money social scene. His family's name graces a wing of the Met (where he is on the board) and several college buildings. He has homes in NYC, the Hamptons and somewhere in the south of France. He works, but it's for like "managing the family investments" or some other very flexible "finance" job, but which is definitely not a 9-5.

Hah, yes. And Mrs Bennett posts constantly on DCUM about how their HHI of $200K or whatever is really poor in this area and they can’t afford anything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Governess would have been the answer for her -

+1 Yup. Governess. Most likely to the kids of a sibling who had married well. She says as much in P&P. Her expectation was that she would live with Jane and Mr. Bingley and teach their "ten children." This would have been a very realistic outcome for a woman in Lizzy's position.

But for a pretty, young, vivacious woman there was huge societal pressure and expectation to marry. She more than likely not would’ve married anyone rather than be a spinster aunt/governess. A marriage to a tradesman or soldier (officer-rank soldiers were often younger sons of gentlemen or “gentry” as were clergymen, so those marriages wouldn’t have been crossing class lines as much as a gentleman’s daughter marrying a tradesman) would’ve been far preferable to being the spinster aunt.

ha. you've obviously not bothered to read the book.

I’ve read it many times. And I maintain what I said. Elizabeth Bennet is not Jane Austen. Jane Austen had an unusual family and definitely isn’t writing herself into the Bennet family. For the average young woman in regency England, any marriage would’ve been considered preferable to a single life. Jane Austen is the exception.

But there have always been lots of women of every class that didn’t marry for various reasons. Women live longer and don’t go to war so they generally outnumbers the men (even with so many dying in child birth). In Catholic families, you’d ship one daughter off to be a nun. It’s one reason why there is so much after the fact speculation about who was a lesbian—many single women moved in with another single woman or relative because they really couldn’t live alone. If you didn’t have sisters, it was likely to be a friend. I’m sure some of them were lesbian and some probably gay for the stay. But also probably as many lesbians in marriages to “appropriate” men.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would a love match to a member of the landed gentry really be so far outside the realm of possibility? It was a fantasy but is there anything specific that would make it impossible? Or just a love match to somebody in the church? Or even a trade?

I think that if Elizabeth didn’t find a love match she would have remained single.

One of her problems was her rural isolation and apparently small extended family. I think her best bet would have been meeting a man through the Gardiners, but he would have been a professional man in their circles, not a gentleman. Still could have been a man of sense and education and the son of a gentleman, but someone in line to inherit an estate.

The Gardiners were affluent London merchants (not a barrister). Mr. Gardiner was Mrs. Bennett's brother, and he would have been the son of the country solicitor that was Mrs. Bennett's father, and who was also father to Aunt Phillips, whose husband was also an attorney.

This shows that the social boundaries between the minor gentry and affluent professionals and solicitors and merchants was always fluid. Mrs. Bennett did comment there had been a fellow merchant friend of Mr. Gardiner who showed interest in Jane and she'd have been satisfied with that match.

Darcy was a much higher rank. By the standards of the day, the provincial gentry and working merchants were far below him in social status. Although he had no title, he was the grandson of an earl and his family's fortune, estate, and history placed him very high up in the social ranks. It was a different world from the Bennetts. I daresay a decent comparison to today would be comfortably off UMC people with net worth of 5-10M to someone worth 100+M.

Funny comparison. So in DCUM-land, the Bennetts live in MoCo in a nice $1.5M home which they bought for the good schools because sending 5 kids to private is too much. They fret about their home prices going down with affordable housing going up in the area, and gossip about the tech guy building a McMansion nearby (Mr. Bingley). Mr. Bennett brings in a reliable income as a fed, but he's really checked out and just in it for the benefits and steady paycheck. Mrs. Bennett used to work before they had kids, but now she's a SAHM and she obsesses a lot about getting the kids into a good college.

Whereas Mr. Darcy is like from the NYC old-money social scene. His family's name graces a wing of the Met (where he is on the board) and several college buildings. He has homes in NYC, the Hamptons and somewhere in the south of France. He works, but it's for like "managing the family investments" or some other very flexible "finance" job, but which is definitely not a 9-5.

Hah, yes. And Mrs Bennett posts constantly on DCUM about how their HHI of $200K or whatever is really poor in this area and they can’t afford anything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would a love match to a member of the landed gentry really be so far outside the realm of possibility? It was a fantasy but is there anything specific that would make it impossible? Or just a love match to somebody in the church? Or even a trade?

I think that if Elizabeth didn’t find a love match she would have remained single.

One of her problems was her rural isolation and apparently small extended family. I think her best bet would have been meeting a man through the Gardiners, but he would have been a professional man in their circles, not a gentleman. Still could have been a man of sense and education and the son of a gentleman, but someone in line to inherit an estate.

The Gardiners were affluent London merchants (not a barrister). Mr. Gardiner was Mrs. Bennett's brother, and he would have been the son of the country solicitor that was Mrs. Bennett's father, and who was also father to Aunt Phillips, whose husband was also an attorney.

This shows that the social boundaries between the minor gentry and affluent professionals and solicitors and merchants was always fluid. Mrs. Bennett did comment there had been a fellow merchant friend of Mr. Gardiner who showed interest in Jane and she'd have been satisfied with that match.

Darcy was a much higher rank. By the standards of the day, the provincial gentry and working merchants were far below him in social status. Although he had no title, he was the grandson of an earl and his family's fortune, estate, and history placed him very high up in the social ranks. It was a different world from the Bennetts. I daresay a decent comparison to today would be comfortably off UMC people with net worth of 5-10M to someone worth 100+M.

Funny comparison. So in DCUM-land, the Bennetts live in MoCo in a nice $1.5M home which they bought for the good schools because sending 5 kids to private is too much. They fret about their home prices going down with affordable housing going up in the area, and gossip about the tech guy building a McMansion nearby (Mr. Bingley). Mr. Bennett brings in a reliable income as a fed, but he's really checked out and just in it for the benefits and steady paycheck. Mrs. Bennett used to work before they had kids, but now she's a SAHM and she obsesses a lot about getting the kids into a good college.

Whereas Mr. Darcy is like from the NYC old-money social scene. His family's name graces a wing of the Met (where he is on the board) and several college buildings. He has homes in NYC, the Hamptons and somewhere in the south of France. He works, but it's for like "managing the family investments" or some other very flexible "finance" job, but which is definitely not a 9-5.

Hah, yes. And Mrs Bennett posts constantly on DCUM about how their HHI of $200K or whatever is really poor in this area and they can’t afford anything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would a love match to a member of the landed gentry really be so far outside the realm of possibility? It was a fantasy but is there anything specific that would make it impossible? Or just a love match to somebody in the church? Or even a trade?

I think that if Elizabeth didn’t find a love match she would have remained single.

One of her problems was her rural isolation and apparently small extended family. I think her best bet would have been meeting a man through the Gardiners, but he would have been a professional man in their circles, not a gentleman. Still could have been a man of sense and education and the son of a gentleman, but someone in line to inherit an estate.

The Gardiners were affluent London merchants (not a barrister). Mr. Gardiner was Mrs. Bennett's brother, and he would have been the son of the country solicitor that was Mrs. Bennett's father, and who was also father to Aunt Phillips, whose husband was also an attorney.

This shows that the social boundaries between the minor gentry and affluent professionals and solicitors and merchants was always fluid. Mrs. Bennett did comment there had been a fellow merchant friend of Mr. Gardiner who showed interest in Jane and she'd have been satisfied with that match.

Darcy was a much higher rank. By the standards of the day, the provincial gentry and working merchants were far below him in social status. Although he had no title, he was the grandson of an earl and his family's fortune, estate, and history placed him very high up in the social ranks. It was a different world from the Bennetts. I daresay a decent comparison to today would be comfortably off UMC people with net worth of 5-10M to someone worth 100+M.

Funny comparison. So in DCUM-land, the Bennetts live in MoCo in a nice $1.5M home which they bought for the good schools because sending 5 kids to private is too much. They fret about their home prices going down with affordable housing going up in the area, and gossip about the tech guy building a McMansion nearby (Mr. Bingley). Mr. Bennett brings in a reliable income as a fed, but he's really checked out and just in it for the benefits and steady paycheck. Mrs. Bennett used to work before they had kids, but now she's a SAHM and she obsesses a lot about getting the kids into a good college.

Whereas Mr. Darcy is like from the NYC old-money social scene. His family's name graces a wing of the Met (where he is on the board) and several college buildings. He has homes in NYC, the Hamptons and somewhere in the south of France. He works, but it's for like "managing the family investments" or some other very flexible "finance" job, but which is definitely not a 9-5.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would a love match to a member of the landed gentry really be so far outside the realm of possibility? It was a fantasy but is there anything specific that would make it impossible? Or just a love match to somebody in the church? Or even a trade?

I think that if Elizabeth didn’t find a love match she would have remained single.

One of her problems was her rural isolation and apparently small extended family. I think her best bet would have been meeting a man through the Gardiners, but he would have been a professional man in their circles, not a gentleman. Still could have been a man of sense and education and the son of a gentleman, but someone in line to inherit an estate.

The Gardiners were affluent London merchants (not a barrister). Mr. Gardiner was Mrs. Bennett's brother, and he would have been the son of the country solicitor that was Mrs. Bennett's father, and who was also father to Aunt Phillips, whose husband was also an attorney.

This shows that the social boundaries between the minor gentry and affluent professionals and solicitors and merchants was always fluid. Mrs. Bennett did comment there had been a fellow merchant friend of Mr. Gardiner who showed interest in Jane and she'd have been satisfied with that match.

Darcy was a much higher rank. By the standards of the day, the provincial gentry and working merchants were far below him in social status. Although he had no title, he was the grandson of an earl and his family's fortune, estate, and history placed him very high up in the social ranks. It was a different world from the Bennetts. I daresay a decent comparison to today would be comfortably off UMC people with net worth of 5-10M to someone worth 100+M.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Would a love match to a member of the landed gentry really be so far outside the realm of possibility? It was a fantasy but is there anything specific that would make it impossible? Or just a love match to somebody in the church? Or even a trade?

I think that if Elizabeth didn’t find a love match she would have remained single.

One of her problems was her rural isolation and apparently small extended family. I think her best bet would have been meeting a man through the Gardiners, but he would have been a professional man in their circles, not a gentleman. Still could have been a man of sense and education and the son of a gentleman, but someone in line to inherit an estate.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Governess would have been the answer for her -

+1 Yup. Governess. Most likely to the kids of a sibling who had married well. She says as much in P&P. Her expectation was that she would live with Jane and Mr. Bingley and teach their "ten children." This would have been a very realistic outcome for a woman in Lizzy's position.

But for a pretty, young, vivacious woman there was huge societal pressure and expectation to marry. She more than likely not would’ve married anyone rather than be a spinster aunt/governess. A marriage to a tradesman or soldier (officer-rank soldiers were often younger sons of gentlemen or “gentry” as were clergymen, so those marriages wouldn’t have been crossing class lines as much as a gentleman’s daughter marrying a tradesman) would’ve been far preferable to being the spinster aunt.

ha. you've obviously not bothered to read the book.

I’ve read it many times. And I maintain what I said. Elizabeth Bennet is not Jane Austen. Jane Austen had an unusual family and definitely isn’t writing herself into the Bennet family. For the average young woman in regency England, any marriage would’ve been considered preferable to a single life. Jane Austen is the exception.

Austen never hid nor pretended anything otherwise in her books. Charlotte Lucas is a perfect example of realism Austen incorporated into the story. The readers of early 19th century would have thought Lizzie silly to turn down Mr. Collins and the stability of a good income and rank he promised. Charlotte Lucas made clear she does not love Mr. Collins but she will get a house of her own, children, and be the mistress of an estate someday. Had Mr.. Collins not come along, her future was an old maid dependent on her brothers. She knew she was as lucky in her own way as Lizzie later was to marry Darcy. It's all very clearly spelled out in the story. It's the modern reader who doesn't fully understand the implications of Lizzie turning down Collins.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Governess would have been the answer for her -

+1 Yup. Governess. Most likely to the kids of a sibling who had married well. She says as much in P&P. Her expectation was that she would live with Jane and Mr. Bingley and teach their "ten children." This would have been a very realistic outcome for a woman in Lizzy's position.

But for a pretty, young, vivacious woman there was huge societal pressure and expectation to marry. She more than likely not would’ve married anyone rather than be a spinster aunt/governess. A marriage to a tradesman or soldier (officer-rank soldiers were often younger sons of gentlemen or “gentry” as were clergymen, so those marriages wouldn’t have been crossing class lines as much as a gentleman’s daughter marrying a tradesman) would’ve been far preferable to being the spinster aunt.

ha. you've obviously not bothered to read the book.

I’ve read it many times. And I maintain what I said. Elizabeth Bennet is not Jane Austen. Jane Austen had an unusual family and definitely isn’t writing herself into the Bennet family. For the average young woman in regency England, any marriage would’ve been considered preferable to a single life. Jane Austen is the exception.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Governess would have been the answer for her -

+1 Yup. Governess. Most likely to the kids of a sibling who had married well. She says as much in P&P. Her expectation was that she would live with Jane and Mr. Bingley and teach their "ten children." This would have been a very realistic outcome for a woman in Lizzy's position.

But for a pretty, young, vivacious woman there was huge societal pressure and expectation to marry. She more than likely not would’ve married anyone rather than be a spinster aunt/governess. A marriage to a tradesman or soldier (officer-rank soldiers were often younger sons of gentlemen or “gentry” as were clergymen, so those marriages wouldn’t have been crossing class lines as much as a gentleman’s daughter marrying a tradesman) would’ve been far preferable to being the spinster aunt.

ha. you've obviously not bothered to read the book.

I’ve read it many times. And I maintain what I said. Elizabeth Bennet is not Jane Austen. Jane Austen had an unusual family and definitely isn’t writing herself into the Bennet family. For the average young woman in regency England, any marriage would’ve been considered preferable to a single life. Jane Austen is the exception.

Yes. She did.

See this: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjByJ3M-873AhXEKs0KHdtSDLQQFnoECA8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdlib.bc.edu%2Fislandora%2Fobject%2Fbc-ir%3A102256%2Fdatastream%2FPDF%2Fview&usg=AOvVaw0Occ7-qPyXT2H0bvazJ-dJ

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Governess would have been the answer for her -

+1 Yup. Governess. Most likely to the kids of a sibling who had married well. She says as much in P&P. Her expectation was that she would live with Jane and Mr. Bingley and teach their "ten children." This would have been a very realistic outcome for a woman in Lizzy's position.

But for a pretty, young, vivacious woman there was huge societal pressure and expectation to marry. She more than likely not would’ve married anyone rather than be a spinster aunt/governess. A marriage to a tradesman or soldier (officer-rank soldiers were often younger sons of gentlemen or “gentry” as were clergymen, so those marriages wouldn’t have been crossing class lines as much as a gentleman’s daughter marrying a tradesman) would’ve been far preferable to being the spinster aunt.

ha. you've obviously not bothered to read the book.

I’ve read it many times. And I maintain what I said. Elizabeth Bennet is not Jane Austen. Jane Austen had an unusual family and definitely isn’t writing herself into the Bennet family. For the average young woman in regency England, any marriage would’ve been considered preferable to a single life. Jane Austen is the exception.

Anonymous wrote:^ just realized how poorly worded my post above is. I hope it makes sense. Basically I remember a passage alluding to Fitzwilliam coming to have a private audience with Elizabeth and waiting a fairly long time for her before giving up and leaving. And it was at the end of his stay in the country, and it seemed to me to be implied that he came to propose.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I re-read Pride and Prejudice last summer when my DD, a college student, read it for the first time-- at the suggestion of her boyfriend. Together with a few other family members and friends, we had a little
P and P book club, which is one of my few silver linings of the pandemic. Upon rereading the book, I was struck by Elizabeth's encounters and conversation with Mr. Darcy's cousin, Colonel Fitzwilliam. It seemed to me that he and Lizzie were quite simpatico, but he mentions to her at some point that he's not wealthy enough to marry. So, that might cast some doubt on the speculation here that Lizzie would have found a husband among the officers of the regiment at Longbourne.

Col. Fitzwilliam was the son of an Earl and therefore felt he needed to marry an heiress (ideally with a title), but that doesn’t mean that many officers (someone along the lines of Col. Forster for example) wouldn’t be able to marry gentlewomen like the Bennet sisters.