Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 12:18     Subject: Re:Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
We have so many jobs going unfilled that require college level ability. What works best to get kids to this level? Way too many people in America not skilled enough for these jobs.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 12:17     Subject: Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:In the real world you get lots of second chances. If a brief sucks, somebody sits down with you, explains why, and you re-do it. Or if you submit it, a law clerk figures out what the hell you were trying to say and the judge rules based on the law; you don’t get fired for having bad citations. Or if you do, you find another client.

Sure you’ll get fired for not showing up or for making a really massive mistake. But the stakes are rarely as high as you’re making them out to be.

There is nothing about the real world that high schools need to be prepared for that precludes retakes.

This. I don’t know where the idea that there are no redos in adult life comes from.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 12:13     Subject: Re:Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My kid got a 7/14 in an art elective in MS on an assignment (not a test). She did the work. Did poorly and now has completely given up on the class. So yes, let's hand out 50s like candy to kids. Especially in classes no one gives a crap about. Retakes allow kids to feel like there is a reason to keep trying.

And no, there is no retake on this stupid assignment and even if there was, I wouldn't have her do it. It's MS and art. Who cares.

Just sharing to show you how easily kids can give up when they see no way to dig out of a hole. Can't really recover from a 50.


I also have a middle school student who is learning a different lesson. He can work very hard at a tedious assignment for a class he doesn’t like and doesn’t agree with the grading and earn maybe a 70, or skip the assignment completely and not do anything and take the 50. He’s choosing what he does and doesn’t turn in. I am not sure I like that lesson either. It’s the 8th grade monthly science research project that’s really not about science at all that some schools are assigning to promote cultural diversity.

I think that actually teaches a good lesson in prioritizing your effort for things that are meaningful and important to you. I think that is a key to success and avoiding burnout.


Or it teaches you that if something is hard you simply don't have to do it.


This might not be a bad life lesson. If something is terribly difficult, find something else to do that plays to your strengths.


True, if Algebra is hard, just skip it

If there is a lesson about slavery in the US, kids can skip it, not important.

Jim Crow doesn't make sense, kids definitely don't need to learn that.

Interest lesson is difficult in EPF, let's skip that one.

Just skip it if you don't like it. Great life lesson.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 12:03     Subject: Re:Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My kid got a 7/14 in an art elective in MS on an assignment (not a test). She did the work. Did poorly and now has completely given up on the class. So yes, let's hand out 50s like candy to kids. Especially in classes no one gives a crap about. Retakes allow kids to feel like there is a reason to keep trying.

And no, there is no retake on this stupid assignment and even if there was, I wouldn't have her do it. It's MS and art. Who cares.

Just sharing to show you how easily kids can give up when they see no way to dig out of a hole. Can't really recover from a 50.


I also have a middle school student who is learning a different lesson. He can work very hard at a tedious assignment for a class he doesn’t like and doesn’t agree with the grading and earn maybe a 70, or skip the assignment completely and not do anything and take the 50. He’s choosing what he does and doesn’t turn in. I am not sure I like that lesson either. It’s the 8th grade monthly science research project that’s really not about science at all that some schools are assigning to promote cultural diversity.

I think that actually teaches a good lesson in prioritizing your effort for things that are meaningful and important to you. I think that is a key to success and avoiding burnout.


Or it teaches you that if something is hard you simply don't have to do it.


This might not be a bad life lesson. If something is terribly difficult, find something else to do that plays to your strengths.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 12:01     Subject: Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
In the real world you get lots of second chances. If a brief sucks, somebody sits down with you, explains why, and you re-do it. Or if you submit it, a law clerk figures out what the hell you were trying to say and the judge rules based on the law; you don’t get fired for having bad citations. Or if you do, you find another client.

Sure you’ll get fired for not showing up or for making a really massive mistake. But the stakes are rarely as high as you’re making them out to be.

There is nothing about the real world that high schools need to be prepared for that precludes retakes.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 11:17     Subject: Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:In the year 2000 a student didn't turn in any work they earned 0. Parents will ground the student and will learn the lesson.

Now the lowest grade we can earned is a 50%...... Parents will write an "excuse on why they couldn't complete the work.....
deadlines?
What deadlines?
Students can submit late work with no deductions! They can go back to previous semesters and submit work without deductions/penalties and the teacher have to accept it and do the paperwork for grade change.


In the real world there will be deadlines. If you miss the deadlines there will be penalty and mommy and daddy will not be able to call the credit card company and tell I can pay when ever I want to..

Let's talk about retakes. You might be able to retake your DMV Test, Praxis EXAM, or other exams but you have to pay for them.
back in the day test were given once and that was it.
When are we going to let students start taking responsible again?


Why do you care? Get a life!


+100.

Why do I feel like this is same person who on another post swears parents are lazy, kids can read by age 3, and is obsessed with red shirting.

They are afflicted with the worst jealousy ever.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 10:51     Subject: Re:Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So how do these kids get through college? Are retakes a thing now in college too?


I taught at that level for 10 years. I had 3 tests, all equal weight. Students could drop their lowest test score. If a student did poorly on one of the earlier exams, they could take the final and drop the other grade. If they did well on the first two exams, they didn't have to take the final. It allowed students to show me that they had mastered the material over the course of the semester without allowing for retests or extra credit. I also set up term papers so that there were 3 phases: a research question, hypotheses, and theory section. They turned in each phase, I graded it an provided comments. They turned in all three phases with a conclusion the week before finals. That gave them a chance to learn from my comments and improve papers as they went. I also had each paper section listed in the syllabus with the due date and what was required. Once a week I put up the schedule of due dates and discussed what the expectations were for the next assignment.

As a Professor it meant that I had fewer tests to grade during finals week and their final papers were so much better because they had been writing the paper over the course of the semester and not at the last minute in an overnight session. I hope that it reduced the stress for my students because they knew they had opportunities to improve their performance and because it showed them how to break a paper down into stages and build from there. I still had students fail the class because they blew off tests or didn't turn in paper sections.

The reality is, the students who wanted A's were in class regularly, turned in papers on time, and tended to do well on the early exams. They also worried enough that they took the final even though they had an A. I had students who were happy with a C or a B, they did their work and really made no effort to improve their grade. I had students who turned in their already graded paper assignments with a new conclusion for their final paper. Some students took advantage of the set up and went from a C to a B or a B to an A, those were the students I was aiming for.

The A students are normally going to do what it takes to earn their A. The students who are interested in learning and growing are the ones who benefited from my system. They could come to office hours and learn how to write a better paper or clarify material they didn't understand. Or they could take the comments on their exams and papers and improve their performance. I was never going to reach the kid who is going to fail or get a D because they really didn't want to be there. And those were the ones who parents called to complain about their adult child failing my class.



Thanks for sharing. Just curious what level course was this? It sounds like a 100-level course or maybe remedial. No offense but this sounds like a course for students who never learned how to study or write papers in HS. Again, no offense. All of my professors expected we could come into college already knowing how to write papers. Was this a community college?


I taught 100 level through graduate classes at a few different four year universities. . I used the same policy in all of my Undergrad classes. I was exposed to the method in a research methodology class when we were teaching the students to write a paper using statistics that they ran. We were focused on teaching them how to write testable hypotheses and then testing those hypotheses. It is not something they should have learned in High School. I realized teaching other classes that students needed more guidance with their papers. And I realized that the papers improved in quality when they were worked on earlier in the year. So this method worked well. It forced the students to work on the paper over time, they received feedback on different sections, and they could adjust their approach as they went.

I found that it worked well. It helped students who were interested in learning and improving but it really did make grading less painful for me. Most students read through comments on the earlier returned papers and their later drafts improved. They might not have earned an A but I had a higher number of A's and B's then most of my fellow Teachers. I tended to have very few C's. But I still had students earn D's and flunk. Many students commented that they ended up appreciating it because there were fewer all nighters for them and they realized that if they worked on things earlier it really did improve their performance and made them less stressed.

The reality is that many students arrive at College not able to write a proper term paper, this was the case 20 years ago when I was teaching and remains the same now.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 10:37     Subject: Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I was completely irresponsible in high school. Didn’t care about grades at all. I didn’t study at all. My parents definitely helped me out. I matured throughout college and by the time I graduated, I was able to be successful in a job. If my parents had just let me sink in high school I wouldn’t have gotten to go to college and become successful.

I think 50s and retakes are good so you don’t just tank a kids future. They will grow up.


This is a critical distinction, however. It is not the school letting you slide.


Not every kid has parents who are paying attention. Like it or not, there are kids who could do better but whose parents are not paying attention for a wide variety of reasons. Maybe some of the kids who can do better and who have less attentive parents are taking advantage of the opportunities.

I am not sure how I feel about the policy but I wish that it was uniform across the County and it is not.

Grades in high school shouldn't be a competition, kids who earn an A on the first test can look at the restest options and be happy that they don't have to stress out over taking the test a second time or completing the work to show that they are ready for a second test. The A student, or student happy with their grade, can focus on the new material. The student who wants to pull up their grade has a larger burden. They need to focus on learning the past material and the new material at the same time. That is not an easy task. The kid who got the A on the first go around should be happy with that. If another kid wants to redo work while learning new material, more power to them.

I do think the rule should be adjusted that once the next test is past, you cannot retake an older test. At some point in time Teachers need to be able to set grades and not have to worry about extra grading based on past materials. And the policy needs to be uniform across the County.


This is not my problem. And the fact is, grades in HS ARE a competition.


Colleges use grades for admissions, yes. And Grad Schools use grades for admissions. So yes, grades are a competition. But they are not a competition in a given class, at least I doubt that many Teachers are grading on a curve in FCPS HS.

If you are so worried that a kid who doesn't have attentive parents is using the makeup policy to better themselves then I would suggest that you need to view the world more broadly then that kid might get into a college ahead of your kid who has attentive parents.

The reality is that admissions to the "top tier" schools is a bit of a crap shoot anyway. Lots of kids have the same, or similar, GPAs, AP scores, and SAT/ACT scores. If you are worried that a few kids who did poorly on a test and then did all the make up work to get an A on it so they have the same grade as your kid then you have not looked at the probability of your kid getting into Harvard or whatever school you have your eyes on.

Kids who are earning A's in AP/IB classes are not going to have an issue getting into a really good college, even if it is not one of the prized schools.

So I stand by my statement, High School grades are not a competition. Your child's A does not depend on other kids getting a B. I would guess that kids taking advantage of the makeup policy are more likely kids looking to get a C or B and pass and not the kids dead set on getting all A's.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 10:33     Subject: Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
The DMV mentality for maximum, no-holds-barred grade-grubbing has diluted the grading structure of all local school systems, public and private. The policies of extensive retakes and no-zero grading have no bearing in the real world. But it satisfies the status quo and attempts to convince us all that these over-inflated GPA levels are authentic. Nobody is buying this hot mess anymore. We all play the game. But we all know it's just gaming the system through high school to advance to college.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 10:32     Subject: Re:Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:So how do these kids get through college? Are retakes a thing now in college too?


I taught at that level for 10 years. I had 3 tests, all equal weight. Students could drop their lowest test score. If a student did poorly on one of the earlier exams, they could take the final and drop the other grade. If they did well on the first two exams, they didn't have to take the final. It allowed students to show me that they had mastered the material over the course of the semester without allowing for retests or extra credit. I also set up term papers so that there were 3 phases: a research question, hypotheses, and theory section. They turned in each phase, I graded it an provided comments. They turned in all three phases with a conclusion the week before finals. That gave them a chance to learn from my comments and improve papers as they went. I also had each paper section listed in the syllabus with the due date and what was required. Once a week I put up the schedule of due dates and discussed what the expectations were for the next assignment.

As a Professor it meant that I had fewer tests to grade during finals week and their final papers were so much better because they had been writing the paper over the course of the semester and not at the last minute in an overnight session. I hope that it reduced the stress for my students because they knew they had opportunities to improve their performance and because it showed them how to break a paper down into stages and build from there. I still had students fail the class because they blew off tests or didn't turn in paper sections.

The reality is, the students who wanted A's were in class regularly, turned in papers on time, and tended to do well on the early exams. They also worried enough that they took the final even though they had an A. I had students who were happy with a C or a B, they did their work and really made no effort to improve their grade. I had students who turned in their already graded paper assignments with a new conclusion for their final paper. Some students took advantage of the set up and went from a C to a B or a B to an A, those were the students I was aiming for.

The A students are normally going to do what it takes to earn their A. The students who are interested in learning and growing are the ones who benefited from my system. They could come to office hours and learn how to write a better paper or clarify material they didn't understand. Or they could take the comments on their exams and papers and improve their performance. I was never going to reach the kid who is going to fail or get a D because they really didn't want to be there. And those were the ones who parents called to complain about their adult child failing my class.



Thanks for sharing. Just curious what level course was this? It sounds like a 100-level course or maybe remedial. No offense but this sounds like a course for students who never learned how to study or write papers in HS. Again, no offense. All of my professors expected we could come into college already knowing how to write papers. Was this a community college?
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 10:25     Subject: Re:Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My kid got a 7/14 in an art elective in MS on an assignment (not a test). She did the work. Did poorly and now has completely given up on the class. So yes, let's hand out 50s like candy to kids. Especially in classes no one gives a crap about. Retakes allow kids to feel like there is a reason to keep trying.

And no, there is no retake on this stupid assignment and even if there was, I wouldn't have her do it. It's MS and art. Who cares.

Just sharing to show you how easily kids can give up when they see no way to dig out of a hole. Can't really recover from a 50.


I also have a middle school student who is learning a different lesson. He can work very hard at a tedious assignment for a class he doesn’t like and doesn’t agree with the grading and earn maybe a 70, or skip the assignment completely and not do anything and take the 50. He’s choosing what he does and doesn’t turn in. I am not sure I like that lesson either. It’s the 8th grade monthly science research project that’s really not about science at all that some schools are assigning to promote cultural diversity.

I think that actually teaches a good lesson in prioritizing your effort for things that are meaningful and important to you. I think that is a key to success and avoiding burnout.


Or it teaches you that if something is hard you simply don't have to do it.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 10:22     Subject: Re:Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My kid got a 7/14 in an art elective in MS on an assignment (not a test). She did the work. Did poorly and now has completely given up on the class. So yes, let's hand out 50s like candy to kids. Especially in classes no one gives a crap about. Retakes allow kids to feel like there is a reason to keep trying.

And no, there is no retake on this stupid assignment and even if there was, I wouldn't have her do it. It's MS and art. Who cares.

Just sharing to show you how easily kids can give up when they see no way to dig out of a hole. Can't really recover from a 50.


I also have a middle school student who is learning a different lesson. He can work very hard at a tedious assignment for a class he doesn’t like and doesn’t agree with the grading and earn maybe a 70, or skip the assignment completely and not do anything and take the 50. He’s choosing what he does and doesn’t turn in. I am not sure I like that lesson either. It’s the 8th grade monthly science research project that’s really not about science at all that some schools are assigning to promote cultural diversity.

I think that actually teaches a good lesson in prioritizing your effort for things that are meaningful and important to you. I think that is a key to success and avoiding burnout.


I’m struggling a little with this idea. As some parents are suggesting, why aren’t we sitting there and forcing him to do back assignments? Well, DH and I are kind of old school and keep reminding ourselves that an online gradebook and instant notifications didn’t exist when we were in school. We don’t want to helicopter him into high school. Frustrating as it is, we see him putting a lot more effort into his classes that earn HS credit. He still doesn’t care about As and studying but doesn’t have missing assignments in those. So do we get really strict and micro manage this or is he learning a different life lesson, as you point out, of prioritizing? He has definitely learned how to work the system with averages and the 50% minimum.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 10:00     Subject: Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I was completely irresponsible in high school. Didn’t care about grades at all. I didn’t study at all. My parents definitely helped me out. I matured throughout college and by the time I graduated, I was able to be successful in a job. If my parents had just let me sink in high school I wouldn’t have gotten to go to college and become successful.

I think 50s and retakes are good so you don’t just tank a kids future. They will grow up.


This is a critical distinction, however. It is not the school letting you slide.


Not every kid has parents who are paying attention. Like it or not, there are kids who could do better but whose parents are not paying attention for a wide variety of reasons. Maybe some of the kids who can do better and who have less attentive parents are taking advantage of the opportunities.

I am not sure how I feel about the policy but I wish that it was uniform across the County and it is not.

Grades in high school shouldn't be a competition, kids who earn an A on the first test can look at the restest options and be happy that they don't have to stress out over taking the test a second time or completing the work to show that they are ready for a second test. The A student, or student happy with their grade, can focus on the new material. The student who wants to pull up their grade has a larger burden. They need to focus on learning the past material and the new material at the same time. That is not an easy task. The kid who got the A on the first go around should be happy with that. If another kid wants to redo work while learning new material, more power to them.

I do think the rule should be adjusted that once the next test is past, you cannot retake an older test. At some point in time Teachers need to be able to set grades and not have to worry about extra grading based on past materials. And the policy needs to be uniform across the County.


This is not my problem. And the fact is, grades in HS ARE a competition.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 08:56     Subject: Re:Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My kid got a 7/14 in an art elective in MS on an assignment (not a test). She did the work. Did poorly and now has completely given up on the class. So yes, let's hand out 50s like candy to kids. Especially in classes no one gives a crap about. Retakes allow kids to feel like there is a reason to keep trying.

And no, there is no retake on this stupid assignment and even if there was, I wouldn't have her do it. It's MS and art. Who cares.

Just sharing to show you how easily kids can give up when they see no way to dig out of a hole. Can't really recover from a 50.


I also have a middle school student who is learning a different lesson. He can work very hard at a tedious assignment for a class he doesn’t like and doesn’t agree with the grading and earn maybe a 70, or skip the assignment completely and not do anything and take the 50. He’s choosing what he does and doesn’t turn in. I am not sure I like that lesson either. It’s the 8th grade monthly science research project that’s really not about science at all that some schools are assigning to promote cultural diversity.

I think that actually teaches a good lesson in prioritizing your effort for things that are meaningful and important to you. I think that is a key to success and avoiding burnout.
Anonymous
Post 04/18/2022 08:21     Subject: Let's talk about the real world and retakes and deadlines
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I was completely irresponsible in high school. Didn’t care about grades at all. I didn’t study at all. My parents definitely helped me out. I matured throughout college and by the time I graduated, I was able to be successful in a job. If my parents had just let me sink in high school I wouldn’t have gotten to go to college and become successful.

I think 50s and retakes are good so you don’t just tank a kids future. They will grow up.


This is a critical distinction, however. It is not the school letting you slide.


Not every kid has parents who are paying attention. Like it or not, there are kids who could do better but whose parents are not paying attention for a wide variety of reasons. Maybe some of the kids who can do better and who have less attentive parents are taking advantage of the opportunities.

I am not sure how I feel about the policy but I wish that it was uniform across the County and it is not.

Grades in high school shouldn't be a competition, kids who earn an A on the first test can look at the restest options and be happy that they don't have to stress out over taking the test a second time or completing the work to show that they are ready for a second test. The A student, or student happy with their grade, can focus on the new material. The student who wants to pull up their grade has a larger burden. They need to focus on learning the past material and the new material at the same time. That is not an easy task. The kid who got the A on the first go around should be happy with that. If another kid wants to redo work while learning new material, more power to them.

I do think the rule should be adjusted that once the next test is past, you cannot retake an older test. At some point in time Teachers need to be able to set grades and not have to worry about extra grading based on past materials. And the policy needs to be uniform across the County.