Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So -- I'm just now realizing that my husband of 20+ years is also a manipulative narcissist...it is not apparent unless I don't go along with what he wants, and I think when I was younger I did this because it was easier and only now are we really battling it out over some big issues. From what I can now, my husband really believes his own versions of events, and he has the ability to completely forget things he did and said that others on this board would call 'unforgivable' -- no physical abuse, but a lot of verbal abuse if I don't agree with his opinions or actions. He doesn't think he is lying, or gaslighting, or covering up the truth, even though he is doing all of this routinely. With someone like this, it is complicated because there is no point in arguing or relationship counseling.

For many reasons, I am not looking to divorce right now, although this is not off the table for the future. For those of you with happy marriages, this decision and the following suggestion may not make sense, but OP will get it as her situation sounds similar. With my therapist's advice, I identified my current goal as being to minimize damage to the kids, so I have stopped saying anything back to him when I disagree with whatever he just said -- literally nothing -- and I just go on and do what I feel is right regardless of what he says or thinks. As a result, we have not had a blow-up in 3 weeks, although our conversations are pretty much confined to coordination about the kids activities and facts. My therapist helped me realize that I don't need to tell him what I think in order to feel like I am strong, or self actualizing, or whatever, and that as I can control my own behavior it is up to me to take an action to try to change the dynamic. Try this. It means that you are controlling the situation, not him, and just that thought makes the whole mess easier for me to handle mentally. Good luck, OP, and hugs -- this is difficult.

OP here- Yes. My concern is the gaslighting and false narratives, not the physical stuff. I used to feel so confused after arguments, like I was going crazy. Gaslighting makes you feel that way. I saw a therapist for a gut check. Of course, someone hearing only one side of the story can’t give unbiased assessment, but she helped me identify tools he was using to manipulate me. I also walked down the road of divorce with her - mentally planning it out and thinking through the impact it would have in all areas. Like you, I’m not ready to do that yet. I never thought I would find myself here and, frankly, it took me years to realize this is where I am. I still struggle with accepting it. It’s so easy for people who have never lived with a narcissist to give simple solutions, and I don’t blame them, because I would be giving the same advice.

Anonymous wrote:

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.


Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.

NP and a woman, but I think that the PP suggesting a different way of viewing things (quoted above) is reasonable. I am NOT suggesting what OP's DH did or said is ok, because it's not (and I actually find his texts today perhaps more troubling). However, it is possible that her DH was acting in the heat of the moment and does not view pulling her shoulder as described by OP as pushing her, and did not intend for her to fall. OP also said she had a vacuum in her hands, which may have put her off-balance and contributed to falling. Her DH absolutely should not have put his hands on her like that and certainly should not have blocked her from the leaving room. At the same time, unless OP was genuinely worried about her safety, repeatedly yelling so that the kids could hear probably exacerbated the situation. I can't tell from OP's post whether she had safety concerns, or whether tempers were running high at that point and she yelled because she was frustrated and emotional (understandably). I'm not suggesting that OP is to blame for the kids overhearing, just wondering whether both parties had opportunities to dial this back and didn't do that. In any event, OP and her DH need to address the issues directly with their kids - "we are sorry about the fight, we let things get out control and will do our best not to let that happen again." I don't think any of us know enough to advise whether this should be the end of their marriage - the lawyer screaming divorce seems to be projecting a lot, and may be right, but I don't think we have enough information to say. At a minimum, DH needs individual counseling to control his emotions and communicate better, and couples counseling might help OP and her DH learn new and healthier communication strategies that would be useful whether they stay married or not.

Anonymous wrote:So -- I'm just now realizing that my husband of 20+ years is also a manipulative narcissist...it is not apparent unless I don't go along with what he wants, and I think when I was younger I did this because it was easier and only now are we really battling it out over some big issues. From what I can now, my husband really believes his own versions of events, and he has the ability to completely forget things he did and said that others on this board would call 'unforgivable' -- no physical abuse, but a lot of verbal abuse if I don't agree with his opinions or actions. He doesn't think he is lying, or gaslighting, or covering up the truth, even though he is doing all of this routinely. With someone like this, it is complicated because there is no point in arguing or relationship counseling.

For many reasons, I am not looking to divorce right now, although this is not off the table for the future. For those of you with happy marriages, this decision and the following suggestion may not make sense, but OP will get it as her situation sounds similar. With my therapist's advice, I identified my current goal as being to minimize damage to the kids, so I have stopped saying anything back to him when I disagree with whatever he just said -- literally nothing -- and I just go on and do what I feel is right regardless of what he says or thinks. As a result, we have not had a blow-up in 3 weeks, although our conversations are pretty much confined to coordination about the kids activities and facts. My therapist helped me realize that I don't need to tell him what I think in order to feel like I am strong, or self actualizing, or whatever, and that as I can control my own behavior it is up to me to take an action to try to change the dynamic. Try this. It means that you are controlling the situation, not him, and just that thought makes the whole mess easier for me to handle mentally. Good luck, OP, and hugs -- this is difficult.

Anonymous wrote:

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.


Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.

NP and a woman, but I think that the PP suggesting a different way of viewing things (quoted above) is reasonable. I am NOT suggesting what OP's DH did or said is ok, because it's not (and I actually find his texts today perhaps more troubling). However, it is possible that her DH was acting in the heat of the moment and does not view pulling her shoulder as described by OP as pushing her, and did not intend for her to fall. OP also said she had a vacuum in her hands, which may have put her off-balance and contributed to falling. Her DH absolutely should not have put his hands on her like that and certainly should not have blocked her from the leaving room. At the same time, unless OP was genuinely worried about her safety, repeatedly yelling so that the kids could hear probably exacerbated the situation. I can't tell from OP's post whether she had safety concerns, or whether tempers were running high at that point and she yelled because she was frustrated and emotional (understandably). I'm not suggesting that OP is to blame for the kids overhearing, just wondering whether both parties had opportunities to dial this back and didn't do that. In any event, OP and her DH need to address the issues directly with their kids - "we are sorry about the fight, we let things get out control and will do our best not to let that happen again." I don't think any of us know enough to advise whether this should be the end of their marriage - the lawyer screaming divorce seems to be projecting a lot, and may be right, but I don't think we have enough information to say. At a minimum, DH needs individual counseling to control his emotions and communicate better, and couples counseling might help OP and her DH learn new and healthier communication strategies that would be useful whether they stay married or not.

Anonymous wrote:

PP here. I’ve worked extensively in domestic violence. You don’t have enough information here to decide what anything is. I’m sorry, I think instead of turning to the peanut gallery of people who may be projecting their own experiences and trauma on this, OP has the option of turning to a trained professional to sort out the next steps. Provided she feels safe enough to stay, that is. I’m assuming she is as she hasn’t listed previous abuse and doesn’t say she is concerned for her safety.

Obviously the husband needs to work on some stuff. But everyone saying divorce are just jumping the gun.

I’m not looking for judgement about my marriage, just damage control. Last night my DH and I got into a heated argument, I tried to leave the room, he grabbed my shoulder and pulled me back in, which resulted in me falling backwards on the floor and against the wall while holding a cordless vaccuum. It was very loud and I yelled, “Don’t push me! What’s wrong with you?” He then blocked the door while I yelled, about 3-4 times, “Let me out. Stop it.” He then said, very loudly, “I didn’t push you. Stop making up lies.” Turns out our kids were in the hallway outside our door and heard. They are 12 and 14. We each apologized for fighting, but didn’t specifically mention the physical part since, at that point, I didn’t know they heard that part and was hoping they didn’t. The reason I know they heard that part is I caught them texting each other after they were supposed to be in bed, took their phones downstairs, and read the texts, which were along the lines of “did he push her?” “I don’t know” This is the first time they have heard something like that. It’s not the first time it’s happened, but it hasn’t happened in years. Obviously, there is a huge marital issue we need to address. But in the interim, what should we do to address what the kids heard? I understand this is beyond the pale, and I’m devastated, so any non-judgmental advice would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, the therapist can’t talk until Monday.

NP here. Posters accurately identifying her H's behavior as abusive aren't "projecting". Your post reeks of an agenda to discredit the OP, see your dismissal of her history above. Just stop, PP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What did you respond to the text?

NEVER respond in a way that indicates he did not assault you.

Reiterate that you did not intend for the children to hear you. That you yelled out of fear and pain. Insist that in the future he lets you walk away, instead of physically forcing you back into the room and blocking your exit.

OP here- I said “you know what you did. You pushed me and blocked me from leaving the room. Stop trying to cover this up.” To which he responded, “you are a liar. You’ve tried this before. Complete liar. You are hurting the kids.”

I would respond with: "Since we both agree this is hurting the kids, will you go to family therapy with me and the boys to discuss what we can do to make the dynamics in our house better? In the meantime, I suggest we take a break from this argument because I don't think we can talk constructively now."

If he agrees, you set a date by which you both come up with a list and start calling people. It can take time to find someone.

If he won't go to family or marital therapy then you need to discuss your next steps with a lawyer, assuming you don't want to stay in this relationship as it presently is.

PP here. I’ve worked extensively in domestic violence. You don’t have enough information here to decide what anything is. I’m sorry, I think instead of turning to the peanut gallery of people who may be projecting their own experiences and trauma on this, OP has the option of turning to a trained professional to sort out the next steps. Provided she feels safe enough to stay, that is. I’m assuming she is as she hasn’t listed previous abuse and doesn’t say she is concerned for her safety.

Obviously the husband needs to work on some stuff. But everyone saying divorce are just jumping the gun.

I’m not looking for judgement about my marriage, just damage control. Last night my DH and I got into a heated argument, I tried to leave the room, he grabbed my shoulder and pulled me back in, which resulted in me falling backwards on the floor and against the wall while holding a cordless vaccuum. It was very loud and I yelled, “Don’t push me! What’s wrong with you?” He then blocked the door while I yelled, about 3-4 times, “Let me out. Stop it.” He then said, very loudly, “I didn’t push you. Stop making up lies.” Turns out our kids were in the hallway outside our door and heard. They are 12 and 14. We each apologized for fighting, but didn’t specifically mention the physical part since, at that point, I didn’t know they heard that part and was hoping they didn’t. The reason I know they heard that part is I caught them texting each other after they were supposed to be in bed, took their phones downstairs, and read the texts, which were along the lines of “did he push her?” “I don’t know” This is the first time they have heard something like that. It’s not the first time it’s happened, but it hasn’t happened in years. Obviously, there is a huge marital issue we need to address. But in the interim, what should we do to address what the kids heard? I understand this is beyond the pale, and I’m devastated, so any non-judgmental advice would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, the therapist can’t talk until Monday.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People argue, so what? Your kids are old enough to know that their parents aren't perfect. They aren't going to be traumatized. Carry on.

Kids aren’t going to be traumatized by dad getting physical with mom? You’re full of it.

Remember the factual narrative was the Mom's version. Who knows exactly what happened in that room. The Mom admitted they have a bad marriage asked for people not to be judgmental, so please follow her wishes and avoid the DCUM "blame the man" narrative.

Okay this is wild to me. Why do people read a post, decide the OP is flat-out lying, and the respond based on the assumption that OP is lying? Sure, OP could be lying. OP could be making the whole thing up. That happens all the time on the internet. But what’s the point of giving advice or responding anything but “I think you’re lying because women lie” if you don’t believe OP?

NP. There could be five million things happening here, none of which a third person observer is qualified to comment on at a distance. The important thing is that OP get herself and her husband into counseling, and her family into counseling, so they can figure out what the next steps should be. No one wants to live like this but they seem to be at an impasse.

If OP’s statements are true, the kids can indeed be traumatized by what happened. Not feeling safe (because the people who are supposed to keep you safe are physically fighting) is classic. PP was implying that we don’t know what happened in the room so we can’t say they were traumatized. Well sure but what’s the point of replying if you’re just going to change OP’s narrative?

OP specifically said, I'm not asking for judgment about my marriage. The judgments either way about him or her are irrelevant. No one was there.

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.

Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.

OP says herself that he pulled her shoulder to keep her from leaving and she fell back at that point. I can see how a reasonable person might think, I didn't intend for her to fall, and I didn't push her. Moreover, if there is a power struggle in the relationship, which it sounds like there is just from the tone of the exchange, it's possible that he might fear her manipulating the facts AND that she might fear the same. None of this is really up to us to determine. And frankly, if you saw the same incident from both of their perspectives it might be pretty complicated. So the important thing that OP is focusing on is damage control. And I do think she and her family would be best served by stepping away from the argument about facts, which no one agrees on, to a decision about actions moving forward. Family therapy seems like a good place to start. If they want to stay married, then absolutely couples counseling. But those of you saying it's this or it's that or definitely divorce are jumping the gun a bit.


Abuser narcissist ID’d above. Show your daughters so they can ID gaslighting, deflection, and manipulation. They prey on you giving them the benefit of the doubt over and over and over again, but throwing you off balance over and over (physically and emotionally). They absolutely do it to their children as well.