Anonymous
01/19/2022 11:26
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Anonymous wrote:My BigLaw firm won’t look at anyone who didn’t graduate from a top-10 school. I fight them on it every year but those old white guys are stuck too firmly in their ways (with big sticks up their bums…)
Top tier Biglaw partner here. No Biglaw firm in this country "won't look at anyone who didn't graduate from a top-10 school." None. These firms, by definition, are "big," and collectively they go through thousands of associates every year. There are not enough law school graduates from the top 10 to meet their needs.
Give us a link to ONE Biglaw firm's website where there are no associates from outside the top ten. I'll wait.
Anonymous
01/19/2022 11:16
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
I didn't go Ivy but I went to a very selective public school. High-school where I grew up was easy. When I got to college I didn't actually know how to study. I usually just read or skimmed things once then got an A. I struggled for two years until I figured out how to apply myself.
Lack of study skills plus lack of grade inflation made my GPA mediocre. I got into a good Grad school, but not top 10.
At a competitive college all the kids are smart- but they still have to make a bell curve with with grades.
Lack of study skills plus lack of grade inflation made my GPA mediocre. I got into a good Grad school, but not top 10.
At a competitive college all the kids are smart- but they still have to make a bell curve with with grades.
Anonymous
01/19/2022 11:07
Subject: Re:Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Anonymous wrote:^^^ unsurprisingly, many top public and private lawyers attended non Ivy law schools … conflating attending Ivy law school with legal Success reveals a lack of analytical thinking and insight far more worrying than not attending top ranked law schools. Just plain lazy thinking trying on mystique of prestige.
Gloria Allred
Law school where she earned her law degree: Loyola Law School Los Angeles at Loyola Marymount University
U.S. News law school rank: 72 (tie)
William Barr (not a fan but he did well)
Law school where he earned his law degree: George Washington University Law School in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 27 (tie)
President Joe Biden (mock him if you want but I think he is practical and highly effective)
Law school where he earned his law degree: Syracuse University College of Law in New York
U.S. News law school rank: 102 (tie)
Clarence Darrow
Law school that he attended without receiving a formal degree: University of Michigan—Ann Arbor Law School
U.S. News law school rank: 10 (tie)
Keith Harper
Law school where he earned his law degree: New York University School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 6 (tie)
Kamala Harris
Law school where she earned her law degree: University of California—Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco
U.S. News law school rank: 50 (tie)
Kevin Hasson
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Notre Dame Law School in Indiana
U.S. News law school rank: 22 (tie)
John Marshall
Law school he attended without earning a formal degree: William & Mary Law School in Virginia
U.S. News law school rank: 35 (tie)
Thurgood Marshall
Law school where he earned his law degree: Howard University School of Law in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)
Mitch McConnell (cynical and manipulative but super
Smart)
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Kentucky's J. David Rosenberg College of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 81 (tie)
Mike Moore
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Mississippi School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 98 (tie)
As the former attorney general of the state of Mississippi, Moore was the first U.S. state attorney general to sue tobacco companies for causing harm to public health.
Robert Mueller
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Virginia School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 8
Barry Scheck
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of California—Berkeley School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 9
Barry Scheck is a co-founder and special counsel with the Innocence Project, a nonprofit that helps wrongfully convicted prisoners prove their innocence and gain their freedom
Elizabeth Warren
Law school where she earned her law degree: Rutgers Law School in New Jersey
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)
Before she was elected to the U.S. Senate, Elizabeth Warren gained national prominence as a consumer advocate (she attended Harvard for undergrad so would ostensibly fit your legal flop criteria while in reality she used her law degree to fight for many public goods).
OP - have you revised any of your assumptions yet?
Anonymous
01/19/2022 10:43
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Why does your title ask one question, but your post talks about something very different?
I had a theory for the quesiton you asked in the title, but it doesn't apply to the subject you are actually asking about.
So odd.
I had a theory for the quesiton you asked in the title, but it doesn't apply to the subject you are actually asking about.
So odd.
Anonymous
01/19/2022 09:32
Subject: Re:Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
For me socially anxiety + alcohol was a problem from age 18 into my 30s. Went to an Ivy college and drank my way through and passed with B and C grades (late 1990s). I eventually got a masters and work for the federal government but nothing splashy or fantastic.
Anonymous
01/19/2022 08:59
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Some people peak early. Some people don't have life skills, just academic prowess and it doesn't always translate to being a success with other people (networking) or in a real world situation.
Anonymous
01/19/2022 08:34
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
What did you do with your life, OP?
Being a lawyer sounds like they did very well with their life choices. Ask most big law associates and they will tell the harsh reality of the life they live.
You sound like a douche.
Being a lawyer sounds like they did very well with their life choices. Ask most big law associates and they will tell the harsh reality of the life they live.
You sound like a douche.
Anonymous
01/19/2022 08:33
Subject: Re:Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
^^^ unsurprisingly, many top public and private lawyers attended non Ivy law schools … conflating attending Ivy law school with legal Success reveals a lack of analytical thinking and insight far more worrying than not attending top ranked law schools. Just plain lazy thinking trying on mystique of prestige.
Gloria Allred
Law school where she earned her law degree: Loyola Law School Los Angeles at Loyola Marymount University
U.S. News law school rank: 72 (tie)
William Barr (not a fan but he did well)
Law school where he earned his law degree: George Washington University Law School in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 27 (tie)
President Joe Biden (mock him if you want but I think he is practical and highly effective)
Law school where he earned his law degree: Syracuse University College of Law in New York
U.S. News law school rank: 102 (tie)
Clarence Darrow
Law school that he attended without receiving a formal degree: University of Michigan—Ann Arbor Law School
U.S. News law school rank: 10 (tie)
Keith Harper
Law school where he earned his law degree: New York University School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 6 (tie)
Kamala Harris
Law school where she earned her law degree: University of California—Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco
U.S. News law school rank: 50 (tie)
Kevin Hasson
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Notre Dame Law School in Indiana
U.S. News law school rank: 22 (tie)
John Marshall
Law school he attended without earning a formal degree: William & Mary Law School in Virginia
U.S. News law school rank: 35 (tie)
Thurgood Marshall
Law school where he earned his law degree: Howard University School of Law in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)
Mitch McConnell (cynical and manipulative but super
Smart)
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Kentucky's J. David Rosenberg College of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 81 (tie)
Mike Moore
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Mississippi School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 98 (tie)
As the former attorney general of the state of Mississippi, Moore was the first U.S. state attorney general to sue tobacco companies for causing harm to public health.
Robert Mueller
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Virginia School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 8
Barry Scheck
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of California—Berkeley School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 9
Barry Scheck is a co-founder and special counsel with the Innocence Project, a nonprofit that helps wrongfully convicted prisoners prove their innocence and gain their freedom
Elizabeth Warren
Law school where she earned her law degree: Rutgers Law School in New Jersey
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)
Before she was elected to the U.S. Senate, Elizabeth Warren gained national prominence as a consumer advocate (she attended Harvard for undergrad so would ostensibly fit your legal flop criteria while in reality she used her law degree to fight for many public goods).
Gloria Allred
Law school where she earned her law degree: Loyola Law School Los Angeles at Loyola Marymount University
U.S. News law school rank: 72 (tie)
William Barr (not a fan but he did well)
Law school where he earned his law degree: George Washington University Law School in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 27 (tie)
President Joe Biden (mock him if you want but I think he is practical and highly effective)
Law school where he earned his law degree: Syracuse University College of Law in New York
U.S. News law school rank: 102 (tie)
Clarence Darrow
Law school that he attended without receiving a formal degree: University of Michigan—Ann Arbor Law School
U.S. News law school rank: 10 (tie)
Keith Harper
Law school where he earned his law degree: New York University School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 6 (tie)
Kamala Harris
Law school where she earned her law degree: University of California—Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco
U.S. News law school rank: 50 (tie)
Kevin Hasson
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Notre Dame Law School in Indiana
U.S. News law school rank: 22 (tie)
John Marshall
Law school he attended without earning a formal degree: William & Mary Law School in Virginia
U.S. News law school rank: 35 (tie)
Thurgood Marshall
Law school where he earned his law degree: Howard University School of Law in the District of Columbia
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)
Mitch McConnell (cynical and manipulative but super
Smart)
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Kentucky's J. David Rosenberg College of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 81 (tie)
Mike Moore
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Mississippi School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 98 (tie)
As the former attorney general of the state of Mississippi, Moore was the first U.S. state attorney general to sue tobacco companies for causing harm to public health.
Robert Mueller
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of Virginia School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 8
Barry Scheck
Law school where he earned his law degree: University of California—Berkeley School of Law
U.S. News law school rank: 9
Barry Scheck is a co-founder and special counsel with the Innocence Project, a nonprofit that helps wrongfully convicted prisoners prove their innocence and gain their freedom
Elizabeth Warren
Law school where she earned her law degree: Rutgers Law School in New Jersey
U.S. News law school rank: 91 (tie)
Before she was elected to the U.S. Senate, Elizabeth Warren gained national prominence as a consumer advocate (she attended Harvard for undergrad so would ostensibly fit your legal flop criteria while in reality she used her law degree to fight for many public goods).
Anonymous
01/19/2022 08:12
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I have a meeting scheduled with a founding attorney who is a double Harvard grad to do some estate planning for me. I noticed all of his associate attorneys had Ivy undergraduate universities listed in their bio but with very regional law schools. Like hypothetically one went to Yale but then went to Liberty University Law school. Another hypo is one went to Cornell then went to University of Baltimore Law. It had me thinking before I give him my business and almost certainly end up working with one of his associates what causes this to happen outside of drugs and family issues/tragedy? Burnout?
If these people you cited ended up working for good law firms, how did they flop?
Also, you are conflating prestigious name with quality education.
Yeah - how are they flopping if they are gainfully employed at law firms ? You were the one doubting the work of people you do not know just because they went to law schools that were less prestigious law than their undergrad schools. It is absurd to limit definitions of success to attending Ivy.
There are various studies that indicate people who were smart enough to attend Ivies (as measured by GPAs and test scores) do just as well as the finite number of bright students who attend ivies. In fact, some of the Ivy grads I have worked with have delusions of grandeur that are not commensurate with their actual abilities. Others are amazing. I would expect those who graduated from less highly ranked law schools to have more to prove and to work harder. They all have to pass bar exams wherever they went to school.
I would like to see studies of the best performing trial attorneys and district attorneys and compare where they went to law school.
I would expect to see a broad range of law schools especially many big state schools.
Anonymous
01/19/2022 07:58
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Anonymous wrote:My first thought is that their parents paid for college but, when they had to pay for their own law school, they went for the place that gave them a scholarship, was cheapest, or maybe just convenient.
Mine as well. And where you could go at night while working.
Anonymous
01/18/2022 22:54
Subject: Re:Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Some proper wit learning disabilities (e.g., ADHD) can get to a good college but can't handle college education without the support of their family.
Anonymous
01/18/2022 22:43
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Anonymous wrote:My first thought is that their parents paid for college but, when they had to pay for their own law school, they went for the place that gave them a scholarship, was cheapest, or maybe just convenient.
That was my thought too. My dh's best friend went to Harvard + then Cleveland State(Cleveland- Marshall Law). Parents did not pay for law.
Anonymous
01/18/2022 22:42
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Anonymous wrote:I have a meeting scheduled with a founding attorney who is a double Harvard grad to do some estate planning for me. I noticed all of his associate attorneys had Ivy undergraduate universities listed in their bio but with very regional law schools. Like hypothetically one went to Yale but then went to Liberty University Law school. Another hypo is one went to Cornell then went to University of Baltimore Law. It had me thinking before I give him my business and almost certainly end up working with one of his associates what causes this to happen outside of drugs and family issues/tragedy? Burnout?
Why dismiss these potential causes, OP? I'll add mental health crisis. All valid reasons.
Anonymous
01/18/2022 22:36
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Anonymous wrote:I have a meeting scheduled with a founding attorney who is a double Harvard grad to do some estate planning for me. I noticed all of his associate attorneys had Ivy undergraduate universities listed in their bio but with very regional law schools. Like hypothetically one went to Yale but then went to Liberty University Law school. Another hypo is one went to Cornell then went to University of Baltimore Law. It had me thinking before I give him my business and almost certainly end up working with one of his associates what causes this to happen outside of drugs and family issues/tragedy? Burnout?
If these peop,e you cited ended up working for good law firms, how did they flop?
Als0 you are conflating prestigious name with quality education.
Anonymous
01/18/2022 22:32
Subject: Explain people who excelled academically in high school, got into great universities then flopped
Abusive marriage after Bachelor's.