Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 09:10     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:Daycare is the cost of working split between both parents. It’s not a cost that’s only charged to women. Ugh!!


Well, when your family is completely stressed out because of having 2 working parents and young kids in daycare, and you have very little weekday time with your kids, it starts to feel 'not worth it' for the difference in net HHI.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 08:55     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
When I had a newborn and a toddler, it would have cost me $45k per year in daycare and commuting costs to WOH. I only made $60k pre-tax, so I quit working for a few years.
Now with 2 kids in elementary school it's about $15k per year for aftercare and summer camp. They likely would be going to some camps whether or not I worked, so I don't think it's a big difference. In just a few years when they're teens, the aftercare costs will go away.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 08:43     Subject: Re:the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:With the enormous caveat that I am in a very lucky place to be able to make this choice: I have done this and for me the calculation was much more than math. I agree with other posters that there can be commuting, clothing, take out/lunch/coffee costs to save. And daycare for small tots, aftercare for elementary. I have also found that I save on groceries because I love to cook and am no longer too exhausted to do it. But I also don't have the urge to spend on other things (treats, clothes, mani/pedi, etc) to relax or splurge from a place of stress. So there is savings there too. It's still hard to come up with a number because our life before the pandemic was so different, like everyone's.

Here is the ROI for me: I have time for my marriage and my DC. I do not fall asleep reading to my DC at night two pages into a chapter. I can take DC to school and pick up. When I pick DC up, we have a real conversation about DC's day because it isn't 6 pm where we are both hungry and wiped. I can look for lessons that match DC's interests beyond aftercare/enrichment. I am in touch with old friends from all parts of my life. Little things like if I pick up a plant at the grocery store, it doesn't die because I have time to take care of it (and also me!!) I have developed a side gig that pays a fraction of my previous salary but gives me a feeling of making a difference in other people's lives. I cook a lot, which I love. I've got lots of DIY going on. And I clean my own (tiny) home and I can find where everything is.


There is definitely less money and things like unexpected home/car/medical repairs - I notice that a lot more. Because at some point if those costs add up, I've got to cut back somewhere else. But there is no price on calm, family time and tranquility. If you feel you've got the big things covered (housing, education, health insurance, retirement fund) and can cover your monthly expenses, maybe consider some of the FIRE blogs - not just for the budgeting - but for ideas on how to focus on how you want to live, what you truly need, and sit with those concepts to determine how much you need to earn to cover that.



Misformatted:

But there is a really big number you should add to your ROI: the 50% spousal benefit from SS that goes to a non-working spouse. This is indexed to the CPI and probably worth ~$1MM if your spouse makes max SS earnings for 35 years. So how valuable are your incremental wages if you’re going to get $1MM for not WOHM? Better to find a way to generate some non-wage income.


People live only around 10 years into retirement, so the max the spouse can get is a little over 200K over her remaining lifetime or around 1700/month. Less than 1% of people live to be 100. Life expectancy in US is 78 years old.


That's not how life expectancy works. The US life expectancy from birth is 78 years old. BUT the life expectancy of someone who lives to 70, for example, is 86. Every year you live, the longer your life expectancy becomes.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 08:17     Subject: Re:the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:With the enormous caveat that I am in a very lucky place to be able to make this choice: I have done this and for me the calculation was much more than math. I agree with other posters that there can be commuting, clothing, take out/lunch/coffee costs to save. And daycare for small tots, aftercare for elementary. I have also found that I save on groceries because I love to cook and am no longer too exhausted to do it. But I also don't have the urge to spend on other things (treats, clothes, mani/pedi, etc) to relax or splurge from a place of stress. So there is savings there too. It's still hard to come up with a number because our life before the pandemic was so different, like everyone's.

Here is the ROI for me: I have time for my marriage and my DC. I do not fall asleep reading to my DC at night two pages into a chapter. I can take DC to school and pick up. When I pick DC up, we have a real conversation about DC's day because it isn't 6 pm where we are both hungry and wiped. I can look for lessons that match DC's interests beyond aftercare/enrichment. I am in touch with old friends from all parts of my life. Little things like if I pick up a plant at the grocery store, it doesn't die because I have time to take care of it (and also me!!) I have developed a side gig that pays a fraction of my previous salary but gives me a feeling of making a difference in other people's lives. I cook a lot, which I love. I've got lots of DIY going on. And I clean my own (tiny) home and I can find where everything is.


There is definitely less money and things like unexpected home/car/medical repairs - I notice that a lot more. Because at some point if those costs add up, I've got to cut back somewhere else. But there is no price on calm, family time and tranquility. If you feel you've got the big things covered (housing, education, health insurance, retirement fund) and can cover your monthly expenses, maybe consider some of the FIRE blogs - not just for the budgeting - but for ideas on how to focus on how you want to live, what you truly need, and sit with those concepts to determine how much you need to earn to cover that.



Misformatted:

But there is a really big number you should add to your ROI: the 50% spousal benefit from SS that goes to a non-working spouse. This is indexed to the CPI and probably worth ~$1MM if your spouse makes max SS earnings for 35 years. So how valuable are your incremental wages if you’re going to get $1MM for not WOHM? Better to find a way to generate some non-wage income.


People live only around 10 years into retirement, so the max the spouse can get is a little over 200K over her remaining lifetime or around 1700/month. Less than 1% of people live to be 100. Life expectancy in US is 78 years old.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 07:11     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Have you ever calculated how much it costs to work?

I was chatting with a friend who lives in the NYC area about how much it costs her to work (suburban train, after school care etc etc). While SAHM is not an option for them, she has a hard time accepting how much it costs her to work.

It got me thinking....how much do a spend to WOHM? (Not an argument on the long-term financial security, retirement benefits or earning potential....just a budgeting/expenses question).

Me? I estimated some average monthly costs I can attribute to WOHM.

Daycare - $3300 (though part of that is preschool I would have likely had to pay for, at least a few days a week)
Commute - Gas, wear and tear (?) - $100
Parking - $120
Cleaning Services - $400
Clothing - $200 (suits, dress shoes etc)
Dry Cleaning - $100
Lunches - $80
Coffees/Breakfast on the Run - $30
Takeout - $200


Yikes!


Why is this conversation always about whether “it makes sense” for the mom/wife to work? What about your spouse? Why not run the numbers to decide whether he should go back to work or SAH?


Because IRL and also mirrored here, the husbands do not pull their weight in taking care of the household and kids and the women take care of the vast majority of the burden. So most of them decide to stay home because they have to do 2 jobs - WOH and WAH taking care of everything, from managing appointments, to cooking, cleaning, homework, shopping etc. Add several kids or a kid with special needs and the double work becomes unbearable and sometimes impossible, if the kid with special needs requires multiple appointments. I have a unicorn - a very well paid job FH and a H who is very hands on and does things without me asking, in addition to making $$$$. I bet if other women would have more opportunities like mine and involved spouses, the selection would change. But corporate America is not kind to moms, despite all that lip service, and lots of men are too good to do homework with the kids or laundry properly or take the trash out when needed and not when asked.


You don't have a unicorn, you just made a good decision as did I! Most people choose a dud husband and complain incessantly about him and his lack of childcare/involvement in home etc. Buck up women!! Raise your expectations if you want the world to change! You are in the driver's seat of your life! Make better choices or stop whining about your bad choices. You chose to marry that dud.

I tell my daughters the biggest investment in their career and self is choosing a spouse that wants for them what they want for themselves and vice versa. Childcare and the cost of work (or not) is purely a family decision. It is definitely NOT the cost for a WOMAN.. that thought pattern holds us back. It is a family cost that supports the whole family PERIOD.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 06:59     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:For us, our lifestyle, realtionship, and mental health are dramatically better when one of us is home. That is priceless!


Wow! For us, it's the exact opposite. Everything is better when we both work.

Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 05:24     Subject: Re:the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:With the enormous caveat that I am in a very lucky place to be able to make this choice: I have done this and for me the calculation was much more than math. I agree with other posters that there can be commuting, clothing, take out/lunch/coffee costs to save. And daycare for small tots, aftercare for elementary. I have also found that I save on groceries because I love to cook and am no longer too exhausted to do it. But I also don't have the urge to spend on other things (treats, clothes, mani/pedi, etc) to relax or splurge from a place of stress. So there is savings there too. It's still hard to come up with a number because our life before the pandemic was so different, like everyone's.

Here is the ROI for me: I have time for my marriage and my DC. I do not fall asleep reading to my DC at night two pages into a chapter. I can take DC to school and pick up. When I pick DC up, we have a real conversation about DC's day because it isn't 6 pm where we are both hungry and wiped. I can look for lessons that match DC's interests beyond aftercare/enrichment. I am in touch with old friends from all parts of my life. Little things like if I pick up a plant at the grocery store, it doesn't die because I have time to take care of it (and also me!!) I have developed a side gig that pays a fraction of my previous salary but gives me a feeling of making a difference in other people's lives. I cook a lot, which I love. I've got lots of DIY going on. And I clean my own (tiny) home and I can find where everything is.


There is definitely less money and things like unexpected home/car/medical repairs - I notice that a lot more. Because at some point if those costs add up, I've got to cut back somewhere else. But there is no price on calm, family time and tranquility. If you feel you've got the big things covered (housing, education, health insurance, retirement fund) and can cover your monthly expenses, maybe consider some of the FIRE blogs - not just for the budgeting - but for ideas on how to focus on how you want to live, what you truly need, and sit with those concepts to determine how much you need to earn to cover that.



Misformatted:

But there is a really big number you should add to your ROI: the 50% spousal benefit from SS that goes to a non-working spouse. This is indexed to the CPI and probably worth ~$1MM if your spouse makes max SS earnings for 35 years. So how valuable are your incremental wages if you’re going to get $1MM for not WOHM? Better to find a way to generate some non-wage income.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 05:23     Subject: Re:the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:With the enormous caveat that I am in a very lucky place to be able to make this choice: I have done this and for me the calculation was much more than math. I agree with other posters that there can be commuting, clothing, take out/lunch/coffee costs to save. And daycare for small tots, aftercare for elementary. I have also found that I save on groceries because I love to cook and am no longer too exhausted to do it. But I also don't have the urge to spend on other things (treats, clothes, mani/pedi, etc) to relax or splurge from a place of stress. So there is savings there too. It's still hard to come up with a number because our life before the pandemic was so different, like everyone's.

Here is the ROI for me: I have time for my marriage and my DC. I do not fall asleep reading to my DC at night two pages into a chapter. I can take DC to school and pick up. When I pick DC up, we have a real conversation about DC's day because it isn't 6 pm where we are both hungry and wiped. I can look for lessons that match DC's interests beyond aftercare/enrichment. I am in touch with old friends from all parts of my life. Little things like if I pick up a plant at the grocery store, it doesn't die because I have time to take care of it (and also me!!) I have developed a side gig that pays a fraction of my previous salary but gives me a feeling of making a difference in other people's lives. I cook a lot, which I love. I've got lots of DIY going on. And I clean my own (tiny) home and I can find where everything is.

But there is a really big number you should add to your ROI: the 50% spousal benefit from SS that goes to a non-working spouse. This is indexed to the CPI and probably worth ~$1MM if your spouse makes max SS earnings for 35 years. So how valuable are your incremental wages if you’re going to get $1MM for not WOHM? Better to find a way to generate some non-wage income.

There is definitely less money and things like unexpected home/car/medical repairs - I notice that a lot more. Because at some point if those costs add up, I've got to cut back somewhere else. But there is no price on calm, family time and tranquility. If you feel you've got the big things covered (housing, education, health insurance, retirement fund) and can cover your monthly expenses, maybe consider some of the FIRE blogs - not just for the budgeting - but for ideas on how to focus on how you want to live, what you truly need, and sit with those concepts to determine how much you need to earn to cover that.

Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 03:37     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
I was making more as a WOHM, even with the cost of daycare and outsourcing.

Staying home as a SAHM though was super beneficial to my family and absolutely priceless. I don't regret losing the income because my DH never wanted to use my income for our household expenses or savings and I never got the satisfaction of contributing to the family bottomline. Financially we are ok on one salary. The money I have earned through my working life will probably go to my kids to give them a leg-up after college.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 02:26     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:Your estimates are not that great. You don't need a cleaning service, that is a want. Why would you have to spend 200 per month on clothes? What the heck?
You have to eat lunch at home or at work... so not sure how is that any extra cost if you are WOH?


Seriously. Make a turkey sandwich and throw that and an apple in a bag. Done.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 02:25     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why is everyone assuming the costs come out of the women's paycheck. It is a shared expense between both parents and should be viewed that way.


Thank you!! Unless you are popping out kids through immaculate conception, this is a split expense.
And not every household required $400 in cleaning services.
All this is a list of inflated expenses to justify not working.


+1,000. Sounds like it’s the people who repost those idiotic memes that SAHPs are “worth” $200K a year because they add up the salaries of professional chauffeurs, laundry service owners, chefs, psychologists, nurses, etc. Asinine.
Anonymous
Post 01/19/2022 00:02     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
I did. It would cost me more to work vs. stay home. I quit.
Anonymous
Post 01/18/2022 23:06     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Have you ever calculated how much it costs to work?

I was chatting with a friend who lives in the NYC area about how much it costs her to work (suburban train, after school care etc etc). While SAHM is not an option for them, she has a hard time accepting how much it costs her to work.

It got me thinking....how much do a spend to WOHM? (Not an argument on the long-term financial security, retirement benefits or earning potential....just a budgeting/expenses question).

Me? I estimated some average monthly costs I can attribute to WOHM.

Daycare - $3300 (though part of that is preschool I would have likely had to pay for, at least a few days a week)
Commute - Gas, wear and tear (?) - $100
Parking - $120
Cleaning Services - $400
Clothing - $200 (suits, dress shoes etc)
Dry Cleaning - $100
Lunches - $80
Coffees/Breakfast on the Run - $30
Takeout - $200


Yikes!


Why is this conversation always about whether “it makes sense” for the mom/wife to work? What about your spouse? Why not run the numbers to decide whether he should go back to work or SAH?


Because IRL and also mirrored here, the husbands do not pull their weight in taking care of the household and kids and the women take care of the vast majority of the burden. So most of them decide to stay home because they have to do 2 jobs - WOH and WAH taking care of everything, from managing appointments, to cooking, cleaning, homework, shopping etc. Add several kids or a kid with special needs and the double work becomes unbearable and sometimes impossible, if the kid with special needs requires multiple appointments. I have a unicorn - a very well paid job FH and a H who is very hands on and does things without me asking, in addition to making $$$$. I bet if other women would have more opportunities like mine and involved spouses, the selection would change. But corporate America is not kind to moms, despite all that lip service, and lots of men are too good to do homework with the kids or laundry properly or take the trash out when needed and not when asked.
Anonymous
Post 01/18/2022 17:43     Subject: Re:the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
With the enormous caveat that I am in a very lucky place to be able to make this choice: I have done this and for me the calculation was much more than math. I agree with other posters that there can be commuting, clothing, take out/lunch/coffee costs to save. And daycare for small tots, aftercare for elementary. I have also found that I save on groceries because I love to cook and am no longer too exhausted to do it. But I also don't have the urge to spend on other things (treats, clothes, mani/pedi, etc) to relax or splurge from a place of stress. So there is savings there too. It's still hard to come up with a number because our life before the pandemic was so different, like everyone's.

Here is the ROI for me: I have time for my marriage and my DC. I do not fall asleep reading to my DC at night two pages into a chapter. I can take DC to school and pick up. When I pick DC up, we have a real conversation about DC's day because it isn't 6 pm where we are both hungry and wiped. I can look for lessons that match DC's interests beyond aftercare/enrichment. I am in touch with old friends from all parts of my life. Little things like if I pick up a plant at the grocery store, it doesn't die because I have time to take care of it (and also me!!) I have developed a side gig that pays a fraction of my previous salary but gives me a feeling of making a difference in other people's lives. I cook a lot, which I love. I've got lots of DIY going on. And I clean my own (tiny) home and I can find where everything is.

There is definitely less money and things like unexpected home/car/medical repairs - I notice that a lot more. Because at some point if those costs add up, I've got to cut back somewhere else. But there is no price on calm, family time and tranquility. If you feel you've got the big things covered (housing, education, health insurance, retirement fund) and can cover your monthly expenses, maybe consider some of the FIRE blogs - not just for the budgeting - but for ideas on how to focus on how you want to live, what you truly need, and sit with those concepts to determine how much you need to earn to cover that.

Anonymous
Post 01/18/2022 17:19     Subject: the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM
Anonymous wrote:Have you ever calculated how much it costs to work?

I was chatting with a friend who lives in the NYC area about how much it costs her to work (suburban train, after school care etc etc). While SAHM is not an option for them, she has a hard time accepting how much it costs her to work.

It got me thinking....how much do a spend to WOHM? (Not an argument on the long-term financial security, retirement benefits or earning potential....just a budgeting/expenses question).

Me? I estimated some average monthly costs I can attribute to WOHM.

Daycare - $3300 (though part of that is preschool I would have likely had to pay for, at least a few days a week)
Commute - Gas, wear and tear (?) - $100
Parking - $120
Cleaning Services - $400
Clothing - $200 (suits, dress shoes etc)
Dry Cleaning - $100
Lunches - $80
Coffees/Breakfast on the Run - $30
Takeout - $200


Yikes!


Why is this conversation always about whether “it makes sense” for the mom/wife to work? What about your spouse? Why not run the numbers to decide whether he should go back to work or SAH?