Anonymous
12/12/2021 13:16
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.
Interesting. If you are middle class at 435k. Is 300k still middle class? What about 150k? It can't be middle class still? Is that poor?
This person implying 400k is middle class is deranged
Anonymous
12/12/2021 13:14
Subject: Re:At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:Feeling middle class when making $400K a year because you save for retirement, college, spent thousands on daycare, and live in an overpriced shit shack does not make you middle class. You have saved and consumed in a way that true middle class people cannot. How do you people think the vast majority of people who make the average income or less in this area survive?
This is very sad, though, because retirement, college, and day care are the main expenses and all exemplify our lack of social safety net. In other countries people don’t have to save for them all so individually. Yes taxes are higher, but since defense spending is less (and single payer health care is WAY more administratively efficient), they are not proportionately higher.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 13:08
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:
My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.
Interesting. If you are middle class at 435k. Is 300k still middle class? What about 150k? It can't be middle class still? Is that poor?
Anonymous
12/12/2021 12:43
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
I stopped feeling middle class when our HHI slipped below $70k for three years and we had two kids. Technically, we were right in the middle of middle class but it sure didn't feel like it.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 12:42
Subject: Re:At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
We’re at $185k with two kids and we feel right on the edge I guess I would call us upper middle class? I think by $200-250k, you’re solidly upper class.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 12:05
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:In 2003 right out of school we were making $300K. We lived a very nice life. It felt like we effectively had unlimited discretionary income. We’d go have dinner with partners at my husbands firm and while we weren’t rich it was obvious what our life would look life if we stayed on this track.
By 2011 (mid 30s) we were consistently making $1M+/yr. we had kids and costs had gone way up, but were objectively wealthy. We could do things that none of our close circle could (ie we owned a $500k second home and had just purchased a $3M primary residence) and could afford anything, within reason that we wanted.
Over the next several years income sky rocketed. $1.3M, $1.4M, $1.7M a few years around $2M. At this point I felt rich. Not urgent rich but rich enough that I stopped worrying about having enough money to buy anything that I could possibly want and only worried about king I’d have to maintain this income to retire with a comparable level of income (once one literally never has to afford about affording things, one never wants to go back). By this point, Dh objectively felt rich but subjectively probably not.
Around 40 income rose to $3M and now at mid 40s is $4M. I’m now on the cusp of feeling like I have enough to last forever at my current spend rate with virtually zero concern that it would ever run out. I’m very conservative in my calculations. I like to presume a safe 5% return rate with 3% inflation rate (in other words making a net 2% on investable assets). I presume spending to never decrease. And then I run a Monte Carlo scenario looking for 100% success rate living to age 100 for me and dh. Presumption of zero social security. We’re not quite there. Running about 86% right now although some minor tweaks quickly gets us there. At this point I feel borderline I’ll be rich for forever and I think we are close to being able to confidently be rich for forever.
So in answer to your original question. Income of $4M. Net worth of $33M is borderline of feeling truly rich (not the same as not feeling middle class, I don’t think I’ve felt middle class). Rich for forever is probably a net worth of $40M or so. Probably $30M in investible assets would do it.
Thank you for posting this.
I think it illustrates the point that your desired spending level has a massive impact on how much money you need to feel rich. Some people feel they can buy whatever they want with 400k, others need $4m. It truly has nothing to do with what you can objectively purchase with the money, it is a feeling of comfort which is different for different people.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 10:49
Subject: Re:At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
This is so childish. Like children, people think they’re only “rich” if they live like Ricky Schroeder on Silver Spoons or like the people on Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.
If that’s so important to you, use your giant income to go buy a mansion with a wine cellar and a tennis court somewhere way outside the city. Obviously, if you live close-in to a city, you can’t have that.
If that’s so important to you, use your giant income to go buy a mansion with a wine cellar and a tennis court somewhere way outside the city. Obviously, if you live close-in to a city, you can’t have that.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 10:13
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
The issue here is that no matter how much lip service Americans give to egalitarianism, deep down they still judge class by breeding and behavior.
That’s why you have people earning $300K feeling like they’re solidly middle class. If they are working 60 hours a week for someone else to earn that money, with $100k of student loan debt from being the first person in their family to graduate college on their backs, they kind of are.
A century ago no one would have raised an eyebrow talking about the wealthy middle class, or the impoverished upper class. These days the only acceptable way to talk about class is in terms of raw income and it leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance.
That’s why you have people earning $300K feeling like they’re solidly middle class. If they are working 60 hours a week for someone else to earn that money, with $100k of student loan debt from being the first person in their family to graduate college on their backs, they kind of are.
A century ago no one would have raised an eyebrow talking about the wealthy middle class, or the impoverished upper class. These days the only acceptable way to talk about class is in terms of raw income and it leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 10:00
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:The problem is that socioeconomic status isn’t just about money. There is a huge socio part to it. So, I will always feel middle class because that is how I grew up and it is a part of me despite having a high income. Why does it matter how someone feels? We should talk about facts and how we allocate responsibilities like taxes based on facts. Income of X is high earning. I think it should be taxed at a higher rate than income of Y. None of this feeling stuff. It is too squishy and doesn’t move the conversation along. Just makes people crazy.
This. I grew up on the high end of UMC and DH and I are there now, and I've never felt not UMC/UC. Even when I was a grad student with a $20K/yr stipend in a HCOL city and had to ration groceries and eat lots of beans and rice. I think the biggest differentiator to my MC peers was that I wasn't worried about a financial catastrophe, since I had a cushion to fall back on. I ended up needing expensive, unexpected car repairs and a dental treatment, and my parents paid for them as necessities. Those are the types of things that my classmates on the same stipend might have had to go into debt for or struggle to prioritize. The financial pinches I felt were all optional luxuries (e.g. figuring out how to pay to be a bridesmaid for friends who went into i-Banking etc so had lots of disposable income and wanted expensive dresses etc...one friend's wedding cost me more than half my monthly stipend, and I saved for a year to be in it).
Anonymous
12/12/2021 09:54
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
In 2003 right out of school we were making $300K. We lived a very nice life. It felt like we effectively had unlimited discretionary income. We’d go have dinner with partners at my husbands firm and while we weren’t rich it was obvious what our life would look life if we stayed on this track.
By 2011 (mid 30s) we were consistently making $1M+/yr. we had kids and costs had gone way up, but were objectively wealthy. We could do things that none of our close circle could (ie we owned a $500k second home and had just purchased a $3M primary residence) and could afford anything, within reason that we wanted.
Over the next several years income sky rocketed. $1.3M, $1.4M, $1.7M a few years around $2M. At this point I felt rich. Not urgent rich but rich enough that I stopped worrying about having enough money to buy anything that I could possibly want and only worried about king I’d have to maintain this income to retire with a comparable level of income (once one literally never has to afford about affording things, one never wants to go back). By this point, Dh objectively felt rich but subjectively probably not.
Around 40 income rose to $3M and now at mid 40s is $4M. I’m now on the cusp of feeling like I have enough to last forever at my current spend rate with virtually zero concern that it would ever run out. I’m very conservative in my calculations. I like to presume a safe 5% return rate with 3% inflation rate (in other words making a net 2% on investable assets). I presume spending to never decrease. And then I run a Monte Carlo scenario looking for 100% success rate living to age 100 for me and dh. Presumption of zero social security. We’re not quite there. Running about 86% right now although some minor tweaks quickly gets us there. At this point I feel borderline I’ll be rich for forever and I think we are close to being able to confidently be rich for forever.
So in answer to your original question. Income of $4M. Net worth of $33M is borderline of feeling truly rich (not the same as not feeling middle class, I don’t think I’ve felt middle class). Rich for forever is probably a net worth of $40M or so. Probably $30M in investible assets would do it.
By 2011 (mid 30s) we were consistently making $1M+/yr. we had kids and costs had gone way up, but were objectively wealthy. We could do things that none of our close circle could (ie we owned a $500k second home and had just purchased a $3M primary residence) and could afford anything, within reason that we wanted.
Over the next several years income sky rocketed. $1.3M, $1.4M, $1.7M a few years around $2M. At this point I felt rich. Not urgent rich but rich enough that I stopped worrying about having enough money to buy anything that I could possibly want and only worried about king I’d have to maintain this income to retire with a comparable level of income (once one literally never has to afford about affording things, one never wants to go back). By this point, Dh objectively felt rich but subjectively probably not.
Around 40 income rose to $3M and now at mid 40s is $4M. I’m now on the cusp of feeling like I have enough to last forever at my current spend rate with virtually zero concern that it would ever run out. I’m very conservative in my calculations. I like to presume a safe 5% return rate with 3% inflation rate (in other words making a net 2% on investable assets). I presume spending to never decrease. And then I run a Monte Carlo scenario looking for 100% success rate living to age 100 for me and dh. Presumption of zero social security. We’re not quite there. Running about 86% right now although some minor tweaks quickly gets us there. At this point I feel borderline I’ll be rich for forever and I think we are close to being able to confidently be rich for forever.
So in answer to your original question. Income of $4M. Net worth of $33M is borderline of feeling truly rich (not the same as not feeling middle class, I don’t think I’ve felt middle class). Rich for forever is probably a net worth of $40M or so. Probably $30M in investible assets would do it.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 09:31
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:Humans are greedy. It’s never enough.
+1000. Some of the answers on here are absurd
Anonymous
12/12/2021 09:16
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:For me, the concept of middle class is you having to work for money.
If you have a signifiamout of income to live on without touching principles ( in my opinion , 500k plus) earnings passively, this is when you Hugo beyond middle class.
We earn over 1 mil a year, pay over 350k tax( became are w2). So what we actually spend is much less than our tax payment. I’ve just recently make this much, not enough passive income from investment to sustain lifestyle to not able to actively work. Thus we feel very middle class.
It not about how much income you have but how you get your income.
I have seen people on board say this before but it’s nonsense. Up there with the “I’m not as rick as Jeff Bezos so I’m not that rich” posters.
We have 300k hhi and I feel rich because I no longer have to budget— pretty much we can afford what we want to spend money on.
Can I afford to fly first clase to an Aman resort? No. But I can afford to fly somewhere 1-2x a year for a week or two, shop at the farmers market, etc.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 09:15
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.
At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?
400k
My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.
You are an idiot.
When I got out of grad school and DH and I were making a combined $140k in today's dollars is when my life began to feel materially different from my middle class childhood. A middle class childhood which, BTW, included very few stays in "middle of the road" hotels, which my parents couldn't afford. I grew up in New England and we spent a week on Cape CID every summer....in a tent.
Our HHI is now $260k and our life is nowhere near middle class, despite the fact that our house is no bigger than the one I grew up in.
PP here, meant to add: that was $140k and no kids.
Anonymous
12/12/2021 09:15
Subject: Re:At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Feeling middle class when making $400K a year because you save for retirement, college, spent thousands on daycare, and live in an overpriced shit shack does not make you middle class. You have saved and consumed in a way that true middle class people cannot. How do you people think the vast majority of people who make the average income or less in this area survive?
Anonymous
12/12/2021 09:12
Subject: At what HHI did you stop feeling middle class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The idea of socioeconomic class around here creates confusion as realistically the average HHI is significantly higher than elsewhere in the nation or even abroad. We are among the richest people in the world, here in the DC area. And yet when you look at your life, living in a small townhouse in a regular suburb driving a practical car like Subaru and sending your kids to public school, you feel like you’re just another regular American. The money doesn’t go far. A young couple bringing in 250k feel less than when really that’s top income globally.
At what point do you feel, well, not middle class?
400k
My husband and I make $435 and I feel very middle class (we are in our mid 30s). I’d say closer to $600K.
You are an idiot.
When I got out of grad school and DH and I were making a combined $140k in today's dollars is when my life began to feel materially different from my middle class childhood. A middle class childhood which, BTW, included very few stays in "middle of the road" hotels, which my parents couldn't afford. I grew up in New England and we spent a week on Cape CID every summer....in a tent.
Our HHI is now $260k and our life is nowhere near middle class, despite the fact that our house is no bigger than the one I grew up in.