Anonymous wrote:
Nobody is asking her to be responsible for the relationship between my parents and her kids, just not to go out of her way to say no to every request that comes through my brother.

What proof do you have that she is saying No?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not always the same dynamic. My brother's wife definitely prevents my parents from having much of a relationship with their kids. They live 20 minutes apart and see each other maybe 4 times a year. And there's no way to prove this online, but my parents are easy and pleasant to be around. I routinely call them to fly across the country to babysit for me for weeks and they do it, including dishes, yard work, etc. My SIL just doesn't want to facilitate a relationship for reasons unknown and my brother is passive and conflict-averse to the point of being practically dead. Obviously that's on him, but if he were steering the ship my parents would definitely get their wish to babysit now and then or get together more than once a quarter.

But it’s still him! The whole point of this thread, and this illustrates it perfectly. She’s supposed to facilitate because he is a passive doormat.

As I've explained, no one is asking her to do anything to actively facilitate, just not to actively obstruct. My brother brings the kids over to my parents' a lot more when she's out of town. He always chooses the path of least resistance, and that's obviously on him, but choosing to say no to 9/10 requests for a visit is on her. You want this to be black and white, but it's not. My parents ask my brother for times when it would be convenient to visit, he says he'll check with her, and she comes up with excuses for why there are literally no times when it will be possible. She reads his text messages so there is no way to discuss this dynamic directly with him. As I've said many times, no one thinks my brother is blameless, but her choices are unkind for no reason and she is responsible for her own choices.

I mean, if it’s on her, why stop there? Can’t she then say “well I say no to 9/10 requests to visit because my ILs think I’m some controlling harpy who is ruining their relationship with my DH.” See how that works?

At some point, you have to accept that your relationship with your brother is YOUR relationship. You can blame his wife all you want and nothing will change. Or you can pick up the phone, call him directly, and say “Hey, it feels like we don’t see you very often and when we invite you, you usually say no. Is there something we need to address? I love you and want you in my life.” And if his response is “well my wife won’t let me” remind him he’s an adult.

One reason blaming the wife for everything is bad is that it allows a lot of these men to use their wives as an excuse. Men are constantly looking for an excuse to get out of family obligations. Why give it to them? Stop letting them off the hook.

Anonymous wrote:It's not always the same dynamic. My brother's wife definitely prevents my parents from having much of a relationship with their kids. They live 20 minutes apart and see each other maybe 4 times a year. And there's no way to prove this online, but my parents are easy and pleasant to be around. I routinely call them to fly across the country to babysit for me for weeks and they do it, including dishes, yard work, etc. My SIL just doesn't want to facilitate a relationship for reasons unknown and my brother is passive and conflict-averse to the point of being practically dead. Obviously that's on him, but if he were steering the ship my parents would definitely get their wish to babysit now and then or get together more than once a quarter.

Didnt you just prove the OPs point? If your brother wanted his parents to babysit, he would arrange it and he doesnt. That is precisely on him not the wife.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not always the same dynamic. My brother's wife definitely prevents my parents from having much of a relationship with their kids. They live 20 minutes apart and see each other maybe 4 times a year. And there's no way to prove this online, but my parents are easy and pleasant to be around. I routinely call them to fly across the country to babysit for me for weeks and they do it, including dishes, yard work, etc. My SIL just doesn't want to facilitate a relationship for reasons unknown and my brother is passive and conflict-averse to the point of being practically dead. Obviously that's on him, but if he were steering the ship my parents would definitely get their wish to babysit now and then or get together more than once a quarter.

But it’s still him! The whole point of this thread, and this illustrates it perfectly. She’s supposed to facilitate because he is a passive doormat.

As I've explained, no one is asking her to do anything to actively facilitate, just not to actively obstruct. My brother brings the kids over to my parents' a lot more when she's out of town. He always chooses the path of least resistance, and that's obviously on him, but choosing to say no to 9/10 requests for a visit is on her. You want this to be black and white, but it's not. My parents ask my brother for times when it would be convenient to visit, he says he'll check with her, and she comes up with excuses for why there are literally no times when it will be possible. She reads his text messages so there is no way to discuss this dynamic directly with him. As I've said many times, no one thinks my brother is blameless, but her choices are unkind for no reason and she is responsible for her own choices.

So, he could chose to not use her as an excuse, and come separately /alone with the kids to visit. He could call you himself so she cannot intercept his texts. He could figure out and manage the family schedule himself so he knows when there is time. If he is in such a controlling and abusive relationship that he is being isolated from family he wants to see, he could also choose to end the relationship.

Managing the relationship with your family is on him, even if she makes it hard. The problem is he is not managing it, and that falls on him.

Or.. the way it’s being managed is just fine for him. He doesn’t really want to extend the relationship with you, and letting her take the reins is an easy out.

I suspect if the shoe were on the other foot, you would see the situation differently. Your inherent sexism is showing. Women can be controlling, just like men. My SIL is 10 years older, makes more money, and has a much stronger personality. I don't think she's a bad person, and we get along fine, but it is clear from her actions that she does not want their kids to have a relationship with their paternal grandparents, there is no history here that would make this reasonable, and she is definitely controlling. If a man controlled his wife's relationship with her family in this way, I expect you would see red flags, but when it's the other way around you expect the man to simply "choose" to unilaterally change the dynamic. It also isn't about me - I live on the other side of the country and frankly I am indifferent as to whether we have a relationship. I have lots of friends, my parents, and my ILs in my life and don't need anything from my brother and SIL. I feel bad for my parents, and to some extent I feel bad for their kids who are missing out on the benefits of local family. My parents have spent aeons more time with my kids, who live 3000 miles away, than with their kids, who live 10 miles away. My kids love my parents and they have a very sweet and supportive relationship. They also love my husband's parents and spend lots of time with them, because I'm not an obstructionist jerk. I don't facilitate those visits as that is my DH's job, but I also don't block them. Do you see the difference?

Anonymous wrote:This is all part of a larger issue - why we give men a pass when it comes to family responsibilities in general. Unless we demand more participation from the men in our lives, nothing will change. Women need to stop doing everything when it comes to family calendar management, childcare, elder care, etc.

Yes, part of the reason the woman gets blamed is that there is a societal assumption that women are the social engineers of a family. I love my in-laws and they love me, but I have never, ever “owned” the relationship with them. My husband deals with the plans, gifts, etc for them. And he is very good at that stuff. Honestly, if he sucked at it, they might very well blame me.

That said, when women stop reaching out to their family of origin, you may also hear blame about the husband being controlling. This is just less common because women have been trained to be the social engineers. My dad and his wife are a mess so I don’t see them often. My husband encourages that we see them more — and I’m like “nope, they suck.”

Anonymous wrote:This is all part of a larger issue - why we give men a pass when it comes to family responsibilities in general. Unless we demand more participation from the men in our lives, nothing will change. Women need to stop doing everything when it comes to family calendar management, childcare, elder care, etc.

This. Women baby their sons and then are surprised when they marry women who call the shots in the marriage. YUP! I hope if nothing else I can instill enough joy and self reliance that my kids grow into fully fledged adults.

I can complain about my MIL plenty. She is a difficult person. I don't facilitate her relationship with my kids. But my DH DOES facilitate it. Because it's important to him. I am not an a-hole so I help him how I can (suggesting a weekend that would be good, pointing out holes in our calendar that he could fill with time with his parents etc). But I don't go out of my way. I used to do that! And all I got was grief. So I stopped for my own sanity. Thankfully, while my MIL is difficult, she does really love my kids and is nice to them. So I don't have a problem with her seeing them, but I just don't always want to be involved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not always the same dynamic. My brother's wife definitely prevents my parents from having much of a relationship with their kids. They live 20 minutes apart and see each other maybe 4 times a year. And there's no way to prove this online, but my parents are easy and pleasant to be around. I routinely call them to fly across the country to babysit for me for weeks and they do it, including dishes, yard work, etc. My SIL just doesn't want to facilitate a relationship for reasons unknown and my brother is passive and conflict-averse to the point of being practically dead. Obviously that's on him, but if he were steering the ship my parents would definitely get their wish to babysit now and then or get together more than once a quarter.

But it’s still him! The whole point of this thread, and this illustrates it perfectly. She’s supposed to facilitate because he is a passive doormat.

As I've explained, no one is asking her to do anything to actively facilitate, just not to actively obstruct. My brother brings the kids over to my parents' a lot more when she's out of town. He always chooses the path of least resistance, and that's obviously on him, but choosing to say no to 9/10 requests for a visit is on her. You want this to be black and white, but it's not. My parents ask my brother for times when it would be convenient to visit, he says he'll check with her, and she comes up with excuses for why there are literally no times when it will be possible. She reads his text messages so there is no way to discuss this dynamic directly with him. As I've said many times, no one thinks my brother is blameless, but her choices are unkind for no reason and she is responsible for her own choices.

So, he could chose to not use her as an excuse, and come separately /alone with the kids to visit. He could call you himself so she cannot intercept his texts. He could figure out and manage the family schedule himself so he knows when there is time. If he is in such a controlling and abusive relationship that he is being isolated from family he wants to see, he could also choose to end the relationship.

Managing the relationship with your family is on him, even if she makes it hard. The problem is he is not managing it, and that falls on him.

Or.. the way it’s being managed is just fine for him. He doesn’t really want to extend the relationship with you, and letting her take the reins is an easy out.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not always the same dynamic. My brother's wife definitely prevents my parents from having much of a relationship with their kids. They live 20 minutes apart and see each other maybe 4 times a year. And there's no way to prove this online, but my parents are easy and pleasant to be around. I routinely call them to fly across the country to babysit for me for weeks and they do it, including dishes, yard work, etc. My SIL just doesn't want to facilitate a relationship for reasons unknown and my brother is passive and conflict-averse to the point of being practically dead. Obviously that's on him, but if he were steering the ship my parents would definitely get their wish to babysit now and then or get together more than once a quarter.

But it’s still him! The whole point of this thread, and this illustrates it perfectly. She’s supposed to facilitate because he is a passive doormat.

As I've explained, no one is asking her to do anything to actively facilitate, just not to actively obstruct. My brother brings the kids over to my parents' a lot more when she's out of town. He always chooses the path of least resistance, and that's obviously on him, but choosing to say no to 9/10 requests for a visit is on her. You want this to be black and white, but it's not. My parents ask my brother for times when it would be convenient to visit, he says he'll check with her, and she comes up with excuses for why there are literally no times when it will be possible. She reads his text messages so there is no way to discuss this dynamic directly with him. As I've said many times, no one thinks my brother is blameless, but her choices are unkind for no reason and she is responsible for her own choices.

So, he could chose to not use her as an excuse, and come separately /alone with the kids to visit. He could call you himself so she cannot intercept his texts. He could figure out and manage the family schedule himself so he knows when there is time. If he is in such a controlling and abusive relationship that he is being isolated from family he wants to see, he could also choose to end the relationship.

Managing the relationship with your family is on him, even if she makes it hard. The problem is he is not managing it, and that falls on him.

Anonymous wrote:It seems to me that the big connection here is lack of communication. Most of these men you describe are hiding from the family relationship issues rather than confronting them. How hard is it to say, hey Mom it's hard to visit you because X. I love you but... Rather then allowing everyone to blame the woman involved?

I'd love for my POS brother that abandoned my parents on Thanksgiving right after one had major surgery tell us all why the F he chooses to be an a$$ when my Dad's business literally supports their entire family. Would be good to know.

Have you asked him? Have you asked him in a way that doesn’t involve cursing and knee-jerk villainizing? Because there might be a reason. And you might be able to understand if you ask without preconceived notions and judgment.

Anonymous wrote:So you are the primary one to send pictures etc, but then get upset when she asks you about Facetime. ... sounds about DCUM

I send pictures to my mom and sister, so it’s literally no extra effort to send them to MIL at the same time, and there’s nothing I don’t like about that particular form of interaction—she sends back a “thanks” or a heart emoji or something positive.

I actively dislike FaceTiming with his family, because they expect long calls with captive-audience young kids. They also talk over each other, don’t allow anyone else to speak, and wheedle and whine when we say it’s time to go. So that is an interaction I don’t enjoy with her, and therefore don’t go out of my way to facilitate when her son is perfectly capable.

Short and sweet, easy, positive interaction = I’m willing to do that for her.
Long and loud, difficult and whiny interaction = I’m not willing to do that for her.
See the difference?

This is all part of a larger issue - why we give men a pass when it comes to family responsibilities in general. Unless we demand more participation from the men in our lives, nothing will change. Women need to stop doing everything when it comes to family calendar management, childcare, elder care, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not always the same dynamic. My brother's wife definitely prevents my parents from having much of a relationship with their kids. They live 20 minutes apart and see each other maybe 4 times a year. And there's no way to prove this online, but my parents are easy and pleasant to be around. I routinely call them to fly across the country to babysit for me for weeks and they do it, including dishes, yard work, etc. My SIL just doesn't want to facilitate a relationship for reasons unknown and my brother is passive and conflict-averse to the point of being practically dead. Obviously that's on him, but if he were steering the ship my parents would definitely get their wish to babysit now and then or get together more than once a quarter.

But it’s still him! The whole point of this thread, and this illustrates it perfectly. She’s supposed to facilitate because he is a passive doormat.

As I've explained, no one is asking her to do anything to actively facilitate, just not to actively obstruct. My brother brings the kids over to my parents' a lot more when she's out of town. He always chooses the path of least resistance, and that's obviously on him, but choosing to say no to 9/10 requests for a visit is on her. You want this to be black and white, but it's not. My parents ask my brother for times when it would be convenient to visit, he says he'll check with her, and she comes up with excuses for why there are literally no times when it will be possible. She reads his text messages so there is no way to discuss this dynamic directly with him. As I've said many times, no one thinks my brother is blameless, but her choices are unkind for no reason and she is responsible for her own choices.

Anonymous wrote:It's not always the same dynamic. My brother's wife definitely prevents my parents from having much of a relationship with their kids. They live 20 minutes apart and see each other maybe 4 times a year. And there's no way to prove this online, but my parents are easy and pleasant to be around. I routinely call them to fly across the country to babysit for me for weeks and they do it, including dishes, yard work, etc. My SIL just doesn't want to facilitate a relationship for reasons unknown and my brother is passive and conflict-averse to the point of being practically dead. Obviously that's on him, but if he were steering the ship my parents would definitely get their wish to babysit now and then or get together more than once a quarter.

But it’s still him! The whole point of this thread, and this illustrates it perfectly. She’s supposed to facilitate because he is a passive doormat.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not always the same dynamic. My brother's wife definitely prevents my parents from having much of a relationship with their kids. They live 20 minutes apart and see each other maybe 4 times a year. And there's no way to prove this online, but my parents are easy and pleasant to be around. I routinely call them to fly across the country to babysit for me for weeks and they do it, including dishes, yard work, etc. My SIL just doesn't want to facilitate a relationship for reasons unknown and my brother is passive and conflict-averse to the point of being practically dead. Obviously that's on him, but if he were steering the ship my parents would definitely get their wish to babysit now and then or get together more than once a quarter.

I'll repeat again that's ultimately still a son/brother problem because he is the one choosing not to speak up and say anything to change the situation. Him being a passive person doesn't give you guys a pass to push the blame off to the DIL/SIL he is an adult with his own agency and he is choosing to be passive and not speak up. That shows if he really wanted a relationship with you guys he would make it happen. He is not a child who has to listen to mom and dad. You guys with these responses are completely missing the OP's point.

His responsibility for his passivity does not absolve her of the responsibility for her agency and actions. The two things can coexist. And my parents tried for a long time to facilitate a relationship through my brother (which is what people are supposed to do! go through their own relative) and she acted like they were trying to go behind her back or usurp her ability to control her family calendar. This isn't my direct problem - we don't bother trying to have a relationship since it's such a one way street and are cordial but have no meaningful connection. But I feel bad for my parents, who would like to have a relationship with their grandkids who live in the same city and barely know them through no fault of their own. I'm generally pro-DIL, but to pretend that the dynamic is always such that they are above reproach is absurd.

She is above reproach because if your brother wanted to truly have a relationship with you guys he is a grown man and wouldn't allow his wife to stop that. It isn't her responsibility to be loyal to you guys or to ensure that the family relationship is continued. Also you never know even if wife wasn't around who is to say your brother would choose to have a relationship with you guys? There could be other factors going on in his mind that you don't know about.

It just boggles my mind that people blame the 3rd party instead of their actual relative the one who owes them the loyalty not the in law who doesn't owe them jack shit. Then again this is the same story old as time where it's easier to blame the outsider the non blood relative that you didn't grow up with then to admit it might be your family member that you grow up with that doesn't want the relationship or has the flaws.

Yeah, that's not what's happening here. Nobody thinks my brother is blameless, and as I said I don't have a meaningful relationship with either of them because it's not worth my time. We text a couple of times a year and they'll come over for an hour when we're visiting my parents. I imagine as we get older all of that will gradually cease and our kids won't know each other at all, which will have been their choice. But in this case she does, in fact, actively obstruct get togethers - that is a choice that she is making. Nobody is asking her to be responsible for the relationship between my parents and her kids, just not to go out of her way to say no to every request that comes through my brother. And of course your ILs owe you some loyalty - they are still family even if not by birth. Grandparents have no rights, nor should they, but to actively prevent a relationship between grandkids and grandparents for no reason is not normal or kind.

Ok but again your brother is ultimately the one deciding to go along with his wife's decision to not have a relationship with you guys. He isn't speaking up and saying no honey I want to see my family. A grown man should be able to speak up for himself and that's a brother problem if he can't do that not a SIL problem.

Obviously. I just don't see them as mutually exclusive. Most people don't want to argue with their spouse constantly, especially passive, conflict-averse people. I absolutely blame my brother, but my SIL is to blame too. My brother brings the kids over more when my SIL is out of town and can't act as gatekeeper. Would I tolerate a spouse who treated my family like this? No. Would I tolerate a spouse who was so weak-willed? Also no. I find plenty to censure on both sides here. I suppose he could force more time together, but at the price of angering his wife and creating household conflict.

…and?

Then there’d be conflict. And if he drew a line in the sand, that would be the last of the conflict. One firm stance, and it would be over. I am laughing imagining if I tried to control it so that my husband’s family didn’t get fairly equal time with the kids as my family. That’s a nope. And same if he tried to pull that crap with me. If your brother actually gave a shyt about your family, he’d draw a line in the sand. But he doesn’t. And that’s on him.

I'm not sure why you feel you are an expert on people you've never met. You would behave differently, as would I, because I am not a congenitally passive person. My brother would arrange things differently if he were calling the shots, but he's not and he doesn't care enough to bother trying. He'd rather float along and not make waves. I have conceded all of that. That doesn't make it any more normal or kind to go out of your way to say no to plans with your ILs and to invent reasons not to see them.

DP. No to be harsh, but that person doesn’t have to be an expert on your brother, they are speaking FACTS. If your brother wanted his kids to see his parents, he would make it happen. That’s that on that. You said it yourself, your brother doesn’t care enough to bother trying, so why do you continue to still put ANY of the blame on your SIL? Sounds like you still want to make SIL the scapegoat when you know your brother is the the real passive a$$hole in this scenario, breaking your parents’ ❤️.

It seems to me that the big connection here is lack of communication. Most of these men you describe are hiding from the family relationship issues rather than confronting them. How hard is it to say, hey Mom it's hard to visit you because X. I love you but... Rather then allowing everyone to blame the woman involved?

I'd love for my POS brother that abandoned my parents on Thanksgiving right after one had major surgery tell us all why the F he chooses to be an a$$ when my Dad's business literally supports their entire family. Would be good to know.